Game of Thrones Spoiler Discussion 2 Electric Boogaloo

[The Good Doctor]

2 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

He gave that up because they were about to get overrun by the dead. His loving Dany was just a nice little bonus. There wouldn’t be a north for her to get pissy over it he hadnt.

No he didn’t. Dany decided to help the North before Jon bent the knee. That’s why she appreciated it so much when he did.

[ColonelKillaBee]

2 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

No he didn’t. Dany decided to help the North before Jon bent the knee. That’s why she appreciated it so much when he did.

Do you honestly think she’d have helped if he didn’t? Even if she would, he couldn’t know that and I don’t personally think she would’ve. 

plus that was the reason he kept giving all throughout the show. To gain her army and keep the peace.

[ColonelKillaBee]

I never got the impression he only bent the knee out of love. That just made it easier.

[ColonelKillaBee]

And if he did only bend it out of love, that’s completely fucking stupid.

[The Good Doctor]

7 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Do you honestly think she’d have helped if he didn’t? Even if she would, he couldn’t know that and I don’t personally think she would’ve. 

Yes, it was made explicit in the episode where Viserion died. After seeing the army of the dead herself, Dany finally promised Jon that they would fight it together, even though up until this point he had been very adamant about maintaining the North’s independence. It was only after she promised to help that Jon bent the knee.

[ColonelKillaBee]

12 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Yes, it was made explicit in the episode where Viserion died. After seeing the army of the dead herself, Dany finally promised Jon that they would fight it together, even though up until this point he had been very adamant about maintaining the North’s independence. It was only after she promised to help that Jon bent the knee.

And I remember that. But. Jon said repeatedly that he bent the knee so she’d help. To me that says he didn’t completely trust her to help without giving her more reason to, and to me that makes complete sense. Yes her goal is the throne but to them, she’s an outsider. She could fuck off, decide fighting zombies for a land that won’t accept her rule isn’t worth it and that’s the end of it.

Jon isn’t always honest about his feelings but I’m inclined to believe him on this one. I don’t think he bent the knee just out of love. I think her promise and his love simply made it easier to do so. In fact I’d say Dany was campaigning and still had every intent to make them bend.

Helping them was simply easier than trying to force them when she already had Cersei to contend with.

[The Good Doctor]

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

And I remember that. But. Jon said repeatedly that he bent the knee so she’d help. To me that says he didn’t completely trust her to help without giving her more reason to, and to me that makes complete sense.

To me, what it says is that Jon is trying to justify his action to a family and a people who absolutely would not have accepted his decision if they’d known his motive was love (last time their king acted like this the Red Wedding happened). Same way he kept trying to justify standing by Dany in this final episode because he loved her, and Tyrion had to convince him to do the right thing. 

Jon doing it for love is much more consistent with the scene we were given of both him and Dany making their decisions. He might say otherwise later, but what he says in those moments contradicts what we saw and it’s not an inconsistency because the show even has Sansa call it out.

At the time Dany promises to help them, Jon isn’t given any reason to doubt her. And in fact, it’s shortly after one of her children got killed by the Night King. She makes it very clear in that scene that she is totally on board to fight for the living.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Well I’m glad that wasn’t just outright stated because I’d have hated him for that truly, and been all over Sansa’s clit afterwards.  

[ColonelKillaBee]

Him justifying it now I see as different because he feels like he owes her. Actually that’s the same as if he’d bent the knee after her promise too. Because he felt he owed her for that service.

So to me it could go either way without losing any consistency. I’d just hate him for being so irresponsible if it really was just for dragon ass. Plus, in this episode he and her were no longer banging and it’s just out of gratitude and devotion. Which honestly made even less sense than everything else and after what he saw. I hated that scene.

[ColonelKillaBee]

And even with losing her dragon, she still could’ve counted her losses and bailed. He only just met her, anyone just trusting an invader essentially to just help them because when they could go back across the sea when they see the effort isnt worth it is a complete fool.

Not that I rule that out for Jon

[The Good Doctor]

The way Jon, the guy who knowingly fought on the opposing side of a major battle from the last woman he loved because of duty, stood there with a straight face and defended the murder of a million innocents was so frustrating. I miss when he felt like Ned Stark’s son. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

One last thing and I’ll end my part of the discussion so I can go to bed, I still see all of that as campaigning on Danys part. And unless Jon is a complete idiot, he would’ve too. No way in hell would Dany not expect them to bend at least after she’d done her part to fight the dead. I’m sure Jon realized this as well.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

And even with losing her dragon, she still could’ve counted her losses and bailed. He only just met her, anyone just trusting an invader essentially to just help them because when they could go back across the sea when they see the effort isnt worth it is a complete fool.

Not that I rule that out for Jon

By that point, Jon had known her for months. He was on Dragonstone for quite a while.

And the idea of Dany bailing is not hinted at in the show at all. I think Tyrion or someone mentions the idea to her once in private and she immediately blows him off. We can theorize and headcanon all we want, but the scene was pretty clearly painted as her being genuine about fighting the dead. If Jon doubted her at all, they would’ve given an indicator. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

2 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

The way Jon, the guy who knowingly fought on the opposing side of a major battle from the last woman he loved because of duty, stood there with a straight face and defended the murder of a million innocents was so frustrating. I miss when he felt like Ned Stark’s son. 

Yea, I was getting really pissed at that. I just don’t believe any of it. If they were still fucking, sure but- nah not even

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 minute ago, The Good Doctor said:

By that point, Jon had known her for months. He was on Dragonstone for quite a while.

And the idea of Dany bailing is not hinted at in the show at all. I think Tyrion or someone mentions the idea to her once in private and she immediately blows him off. We can theorize and headcanon all we want, but the scene was pretty clearly painted as her being genuine about fighting the dead. If Jon doubted her at all, they would’ve given an indicator. 

We know that, but Jon doesn’t. Months still isn’t enough time when he hasn’t seen what she’s about yet.

[The Good Doctor]

Just now, ColonelKillaBee said:

One last thing and I’ll end my part of the discussion so I can go to bed, I still see all of that as campaigning on Danys part. And unless Jon is a complete idiot, he would’ve too. No way in hell would Dany not expect them to bend at least after she’d done her part to fight the dead. I’m sure Jon realized this as well.

Jon knows that Dany knows that they’re all screwed if the dead win. It wasn’t the North’s fight. It was the entirety of Westeros’s fight. And she finally understood that after they killed her dragon, which is why she decided to put the throne aside for a while in order to help. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, The Good Doctor said:

Jon knows that Dany knows that they’re all screwed if the dead win. It wasn’t the North’s fight. It was the entirety of Westeros’s fight. And she finally understood that after they killed her dragon, which is why she decided to put the throne aside for a while in order to help. 

She could go back to Essos, those people aren’t her people. Anyone that didn’t know her like we do wouldn’t know she was committed to remaining in Westros even with a threat like that.

[ColonelKillaBee]

I’m terrible at ending debates lol but yea, I’m a firm believer in betting on another’s pragmatism being naive and the biggest fools bet a fool can make. No one with sense would just take her word on her commitment to help. 

I mean, they showed Cersei and look what happened. Dany isn’t Cersei no, but as far as Jon knows, she could’ve been. Months isn’t enough to know, it’s not enough to put the fate of your whole people in the hands of a promise, which again highlights how stupid that Cersei plan was, and I guess supports the idea that he mightve taken Dany on her word lol.

This is the same guy that thought Sansa would keep her promise about his secret.

Ugh.

I still don’t buy it tho, as that would be more consistency than we’ve seen elsewhere lol and also because his bending the knee had a practical purpose in my eyes.

And of course, again, if he did just do it out of love, it’s completely and totally fucking stupid.

[The Good Doctor]

4 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

She could go back to Essos, those people aren’t her people. Anyone that didn’t know her like we do wouldn’t know she was committed to remaining in Westros even with a threat like that.

He knew it because they just killed her child and she straight up told him what her plans are. If Jon doubted her honesty in that scene, it would’ve been implied. We weren’t supposed to see it as anything less than what it was. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

Interesting tidbit:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/pagesix.com/2019/05/19/lena-headey-reportedly-refused-to-appear-in-game-of-thrones-scenes-with-ex/amp/

[Witchking of Angmar]

Can't be arsed to any real ranting. Though I think they should have at least let Edmure speak and not treat him like a joke. At least Sam was laughed out for suggesting democracy, but I find it a little silly for him to suggest that at all. 

[The Good Doctor]

3 hours ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

At least Sam was laughed out for suggesting democracy, but I find it a little silly for him to suggest that at all. 

Could be that he got the idea from the Nights Watch. It was kinda funny seeing Yara laugh at the idea though, seeing as how the Ironborn captains democratically elect their kings.

[Witchking of Angmar]

56 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Could be that he got the idea from the Nights Watch. It was kinda funny seeing Yara laugh at the idea though, seeing as how the Ironborn captains democratically elect their kings.

Even then he should be able to recognize the infeasible nature of letting every uneducated and disconnected peasant vote on the matter of government. Not to mention that it would fuck over every noble house by introducing questions of why they should rule. It'd be the French Revolution Westerosi version. Then again, everyone's an idiot now. 

At least we got another fun little video pointing out even more fuck ups from episode 4. 

 

[The Good Doctor]

4 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Even then he should be able to recognize the infeasible nature of letting every uneducated and disconnected peasant vote on the matter of government

What’s funny is that this would probably have ended with Edmure getting elected after all, since he’s the only one there who has been specifically characterized as caring for the smallfolk. Not that the writers would remember a detail like that. I’m surprised his character appeared at all. Who let him out of the Frey dungeons?

[Celan]

8 hours ago, The Good Doctor said:

Shit, out of that roster, Edmure was probably the best choice. He is an experienced leader with good morals, is uncle to the rulers of the North and the Vale, he has a powerful and centrally located seat (seriously, why did they decide to keep the ash pile for their capital?), and he has exhibited more concern for his subjects than anyone else in attendance.

It pisses me off that they just dismissed him like some sort of joke and that Sansa, his fucking teenage niece who doesn’t even intend to be part of these Seven Kingdoms, was the one to do it. Westeros is literally run by children.

Everyone must be made a buffoon to make Sansa look smart and badass. And yeah, this is Westeros 90210.

8 hours ago, The Good Doctor said:

We didn’t get that, but from his dialogue in this episode, I’m still leaning towards him knowing that this would all happen if he told Jon his parentage, including the destruction of KL, and that he did it intentionally so that he could rule as Westeros’s god king.  

Muad'dib!

7 hours ago, BigBossBalrog said:

Though I will say Brandon's sight is potentially fucking gamebreaking for...the game. He literally knows everything. He can dig out the dirt of every major house, he knows every transactions and evil doing, he can use his endless knowledge to blackmail the houses, and keep peace. 

How hard can it be with this lot? Just throw a few whores Bronn's way.

4 hours ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Can't be arsed to any real ranting. Though I think they should have at least let Edmure speak and not treat him like a joke. At least Sam was laughed out for suggesting democracy, but I find it a little silly for him to suggest that at all. 

The Iron Islands elect their kings. No one would call them enlightened. The fact that everyone acts like this is new and somehow revolutionary is so fucking irritating. 

Fuck all of them. I hope Arya gets eaten by a kraken.