Game of Thrones Spoiler Discussion

[The Good Doctor]

Realistically, Jon should’ve had a handful of Generals among the Northen lords who actually had experience fighting battles in the field like this. Jon trained as a ranger and he cut his teeth defending the Wall, which are their own beasts entirely.

His best man at the time was Davos, who reminds us every next scene that he doesn’t know much about fighting. It’s no wonder that battle was such a blunder.  

[Witchking of Angmar]

Well that episode was oddly disappointing. Character interaction and talking can be really good but I felt the dialogue was somewhat awkward, something was off, for a lot of the time. 

I also don’t think the Stark bones will be any threat. They’re sealed within solid stone. At most they would make a creepy scratching noise trying to get out. Realistically speaking, but we all know the writers has a somewhat lax relation to realism. 

[The Good Doctor]

[Witchking of Angmar]

I find it a little odd that Jon didn't say anything about not wanting to push his claim when Dany spelled it out that he had one. 

[The Good Doctor]

If explaining what’s on your mind to smooth things over were a currency, Jon would be Mr. Scrooge.

[ColonelKillaBee]

43 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

I find it a little odd that Jon didn't say anything about not wanting to push his claim when Dany spelled it out that he had one. 

YES 

forgot to mention that, or say something like I want to rule alongside you beb, or fucking something.

[Witchking of Angmar]

It really feels like they are going hinge the conflict on stupid miscommunication rather than outright handing someone the idiot ball. 

Also I managed to figure out and put my finger on one of the things that bothered me this episode. They had multiple scenes where they talk about how clever and intelligent Tyrion is despite repeatedly handing him the idiot ball. The fact that they need to tell the audience how clever Tyrion is instead of showing it. Besides, why even hand him the idiot ball? Instead of saying Cersei would help and be tricked by her, why not say that she cannot attack them in the rear. Dany got the Twins (she must have since she got no fleet to carry her troops and so they must have crossed the Twins to reach the North) so any attack from the south is out of the question. Attacking the North when winter has arrived is also suicide under normal circumstances as Stannis nearly found out. Attacking the North during an ice zombie invasion is just stupid and would just add men to the undead army. Why isn't Cersei just fortifying the south and waiting out winter? 

[The Good Doctor]

8 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

she must have since she got no fleet to carry her troops and so they must have crossed the Twins to reach the North

Did they ever say outright that Euron destroyed Dany’s entire fleet? Because that would be pretty bullshit. I thought it was just the ones delivering Unsullied to Casterly Rock, which would’ve been a small portion.

8 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Besides, why even hand him the idiot ball? Instead of saying Cersei would help and be tricked by her, why not say that she cannot attack them in the rear.

Dany’s concern wasn’t an immediate attack from the rear. It was that Cersie would take back the parts of the south that she controlled and fortify them against her. If the White Walkers do enough damage, she won’t have the strength afterwards to take the Iron Throne from a strengthened Cersie.

[Witchking of Angmar]

Just now, The Good Doctor said:

Did they ever say outright that Euron destroyed Dany’s entire fleet? Because that would be pretty bullshit.

I'm pretty sure they destroyed enough of it that carrying all her army would no longer be feasible. Besides, why not take the Twins? It's very strategically important location that Robb even died because of. 

3 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Dany’s concern wasn’t an immediate attack from the rear. It was that Cersie would take back the parts of the south that she controlled and fortify them against her. If the White Walkers do enough damage, she won’t have the strength afterwards to take the Iron Throne from a strengthened Cersie.

Though that is not really stated in the show as the big betrayal or threat. Instead they have Cersei hire 20.000 mercenaries to attack the North during winter as the big betrayal.

I also don't understand why they concern themselves with the south when their holdings there are negligible. Especially compared with the prospect of gaining the North and the Vale by helping Jon. 

[The Good Doctor]

Just now, Witchking of Angmar said:

I'm pretty sure they destroyed enough of it that carrying all her army would no longer be feasible. Besides, why not take the Twins? It's very strategically important location that Robb even died because of. 

They have every reason to take the Twins. Probably wouldn’t even be hard considering that the entirety of House Frey mysteriously died all at once shortly after sending their soldiers home. And two small garrisons are said to be capable of holding that bridge against armies.

I was only commenting on the navy point. It looked like only Unsullied were at Casterly Rock when the Iron Fleet hit them, and there are only like a couple thousand Unsullied compared to over a hundred thousand Dothraki, so presumably Dany’s fleet would’ve been considerably larger than the portion that got destroyed. 

4 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Though that is not really stated in the show as the big betrayal or threat. Instead they have Cersei hire 20.000 mercenaries to attack the North during winter as the big betrayal.

Did anybody ever say she would attack the North? I believe the betrayal was that she wouldn’t help them against the dead, and would only bother with them at all if they survived. I highly doubt Cersie enters the North. She was the first character in the show to stress the point that doing so would be impossible.

6 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

I also don't understand why they concern themselves with the south when their holdings there are negligible. Especially compared with the prospect of gaining the North and the Vale by helping Jon. 

Dany’s concern has always been the Iron Throne, which she fears she won’t be able to take from Cersie if the Walkers leave her army in shambles.

[Witchking of Angmar]

2 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

I was only commenting on the navy point. It looked like only Unsullied were at Casterly Rock when the Iron Fleet hit them, and there are only like a couple thousand Unsullied compared to over a hundred thousand Dothraki, so presumably Dany’s fleet would’ve been considerably larger than the portion that got destroyed. 

Didn't they state that they had practically lost their naval capacity? I remember Dany being very upset about Euron taking over the sea without her being able to do anything about it. 

3 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Did anybody ever say she would attack the North? I believe the betrayal was that she wouldn’t help them against the dead, and would only bother with them at all if they survived. I highly doubt Cersie enters the North. She was the first character in the show to stress the point that doing so would be impossible.

I think they said that she would attack them. If she doesn't she has just hired 20.000 men to sit around and twiddle their thumbs for a few years. Which would be silly expensive and could possibly bankrupt her out of the throne more than Dany could take it with her dragons. 

5 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Dany’s concern has always been the Iron Throne, which she fears she won’t be able to take from Cersie if the Walkers leave her army in shambles.

Which is a risk the show stated she is willing to accept when she agreed to help Jon. I mean they didn't even go to that truce meeting with the belief that Cersei would agree to anything more than to not attack Dany for a couple of years. 

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Didn't they state that they had practically lost their naval capacity? I remember Dany being very upset about Euron taking over the sea without her being able to do anything about it. 

If they did then yeah, that’s pretty stupid. Especially since Euron built the bulk of his fleet like a year ago on an island chain that’s mostly rocks. Kinda pulled that win out of their asses.

2 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

I think they said that she would attack them. If she doesn't she has just hired 20.000 men to sit around and twiddle their thumbs for a few years. Which would be silly expensive and could possibly bankrupt her out of the throne more than Dany could take it with her dragons. 

She doesn’t need them for a few years. Her enemies will either be dead or victorious in a matter of weeks. If Dany and the Northmen die, she’ll need the sellswords against the imminent White Walker threat. If they survive, she’ll need them to keep Dany from bringing the remainder of her armies south to take the Iron Throne.

6 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Which is a risk the show stated she is willing to accept when she agreed to help Jon. I mean they didn't even go to that truce meeting with the belief that Cersei would agree to anything more than to not attack Dany for a couple of years. 

Dany wasn’t sure how to tackle the White Walker threat until after she felt secure in the south. That was the whole reason for them trying to get Cersie to stand down. She takes the dead seriously, but she’s not even remotely ready to give up her chances at the throne. That’s why she had to be tricked.

Not that I don’t think the whole truce and wight hunt thing was a terrible plan to begin with. It was. But this was the show’s explanation for it all.

[The Good Doctor]

Remember from that scene when Jaime and Bronn were on the wall at Kings Landing, everyone pretty well agreed that Dany had the power to obliterate the Lannisters. She could’ve done that and then gone north, but Jon, Tyrion, and co. didn’t want her to. And Cersie ended the notion by tricking them into believing that she would work with them. 

[Witchking of Angmar]

4 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

If they did then yeah, that’s pretty stupid. Especially since Euron built the bulk of his fleet like a year ago on an island chain that’s mostly rocks. Kinda pulled that win out of their asses.

Kinda like how the Boltons pulled their win against Stannis. I'm sensing a pattern here. 

3 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Remember from that scene when Jaime and Bronn were on the wall at Kings Landing, everyone pretty well agreed that Dany had the power to obliterate the Lannisters. She could’ve done that and then gone north, but Jon, Tyrion, and co. didn’t want her to. And Cersie ended the notion by tricking them into believing that she would work with them. 

Which was something everyone should have seen coming. Why not just be honest and say that if Dany comes out from the war in the North with as little as only one dragon she could very easily win? Why not just have it be an accepted risk and ignore Cersei for the time being? 

[The Good Doctor]

32 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Kinda like how the Boltons pulled their win against Stannis. I'm sensing a pattern here. 

Don’t remind me. 

33 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Which was something everyone should have seen coming. Why not just be honest and say that if Dany comes out from the war in the North with as little as only one dragon she could very easily win? Why not just have it be an accepted risk and ignore Cersei for the time being? 

Because Tyrion was dumb and thought Cersie might actually help them, and Jon probably just didn’t want Dany wasting any more time or resources fighting the living, which turned out to be a good call seeing as how they only got her armies to Winterfell like three days before the White Walkers arrived.

And while the dragons are certainly a trump card, it’s worth noting that they nearly managed to kill Drogon with a single scorpion while being ambushed and not at all prepared to use it. In a pitched or defensive battle with more of those at play, they might have a better chance. Though I’m sure Cersie is hoping that both dragons die in the North.

[The Good Doctor]

Here’s something I’ve been wondering. Assuming the White Walkers win next week’s battle, how do y’all think the human survivors will get away? They’re in a landlocked castle in the middle of the North surrounded by an undead army and hundreds of miles of winter wilderness. It’s the kind of setup where the defenders’ only real option is to win.

If it’s on the back of dragons, then we can pretty much kiss the entire population of the North goodbye, because we’re talking like a dozen survivors max.

If they flee through the crypts’ hidden tunnels, they’ll still be without food or shelter in deadly cold and very close to an unbeatable enemy who can track them easily, especially if Bran lives.

[BTC]

Crypt escape, followed by them fleeing only to survive thanks to the timely arrival of Howland Reed and the Crannogmen to spirit them away in the face of the pursuing undead army. 

[The Good Doctor]

I do hope the Crannogmen eventually make some kind of appearance. Bran did Meera dirty and Howland is one of the few remaining loose ends.

[Witchking of Angmar]

Well they have hinted heavily at Winterfell falling in the advertisement leading up to the season with shots of a Winterfell abandoned in all haste. Though it's hard to tell what will happen. The writers seems to have someone on board to keep some track of logistics as they had Sansa say feeding the army would be a problem. But the writers have also shown the ability to forget about such stuff when it suits them. 

One possible scenario though is that they actually manage to repel the undead army by killing a few White Walkers. Which buys them enough time to organize and execute a retreat. And they might not need to get all the food with them. Just enough to last the war and till they can get back. It's not like the undead are gonna pilfer the food stores. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Witchking of Angmar

[The Good Doctor]

I was wondering if that would even work. When you’re facing an army that doesn’t tire or feel pain or fear, and grows with every kill, it seems like it would be very difficult to force a break in their assault. Guess it depends on how the dead are being organized and how many will “die” for each White Walker killed.

[Witchking of Angmar]

I think it could be possible if you kill a few key White Walkers that their forces crumble enough to become a trickle. In which case they would need to regroup to form a solid mass for attack. But that's a big if and relies on stuff like that the White Walkers they kill control a sizable portion of the army. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Witchking of Angmar
Stupid grammar

[Witchking of Angmar]

One thing I wonder though is if they kill one White Walker and his forces crumble, can another White Walker rez those fallen?

[The Good Doctor]

Just now, Witchking of Angmar said:

One thing I wonder though is if they kill one White Walker and his forces crumble, can another White Walker rez those fallen?

That would be fucking hilarious. 

[The Good Doctor]

What we do know is that the Night King can instantaneously resurrect thousands of people at once in a very large area. No idea if the rest of them are that strong, but from what we saw at Hardhome, he should be able to keep a safe distance and still mass resurrect Northmen, Unsullied, and Dothraki as they die.

[Witchking of Angmar]

One interesting twist could then instead be that they kill the Night King early, only for the rest of the White Walkers to step up and keep going.