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Roleplayer's Off Topic Thread #35


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Ideal fallout 5 concept @The Good Doctor you have anything to add, take away, argue with?

Reputation system from FNV

Faction disguises from FNV (slightly tweaked to make disguises only activate if you have negative rep with the faction)

Weapon condition from FNV (slightly tweaked to have two bars: 1 overall condition lasts much longer than in FNV and can only be repaired with weapon repair kits of weapons of the same type 2. Cleanliness bar that affects whether you have jams or not)

Skills from FNV

Traits from FNV

Perks from FNV

Skill checks from FNV (slightly tweaked to make it unknown if you will pass or not)

Skills being limited by SPECIAL (i.e. Soeech being limited to 50 with 5 Charisma or science being limited to 70 with 7 intelligence)

Gun play/combat from F4 (slightly tweaked to implement bullet penetration based on material type and return of crits outside of vats based on LUCK)

Weapon/Armor modification system from F4

Grenade/Melee hotkey from F4

Power Armor frame and customization system from F4

Ammo system from FNV

Increased weapon variety

NO LEFT HANDED WEAPONS

Modular armor system from F4

Heavily scaled down settlement system for building player homes

Silent protagonist

FNV style dialogue system that doesn’t freeze time (no 4 different ways to say yes bullshit)

Blank slate character creation (no WHERES SHAUN?! story)

FNV companion system

FNV Faction system ( You don’t become the leader of the faction - Minutemen, institute, you can join gunners instead of them being reskinned raiders, Main story factions + side factions that enhance story telling)

Survival mode from F4 (slightly tweaked to make saving not tied to sleeping and other limiting factors)

FUCK RADIANT QUESTS

Post story play with meaningful post story developments (see the consequences of your actions

Classic Fallout style beginning and ending slides

Interesting world with quests that take you to all corners (no everything is in or around Boston shit)

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@Centurion  If I didn’t comment on something, it means I pretty much just agree with what you said.

2 minutes ago, Centurion said:

Skill checks from FNV (slightly tweaked to make it unknown if you will pass or not)

I would personally take this a step further to make it unknown if you passed or failed at all. Change the NPC response dialogue based on whether you passed or failed the skill check, but don’t tell the player which one actually happened. Would make your skills impacting dialogue feel more seamless and discourage exploitation.

5 minutes ago, Centurion said:

Skills being limited by SPECIAL (i.e. Soeech being limited to 50 with 5 Charisma or science being limited to 70 with 7 intelligence)

I wouldn’t go all in on this, just because attributes and skills, while related, represent fundamentally different things, and I think the limitations it would put on RP potential would not be worth the improvements it might bring to balancing certain systems.

Something like low charisma + high speech can be a viable archetype. Like a speech writer, or a person who is awkward in delivery but always knows what to say. Someone with low intelligence + high science might be a sort of idiot savant, who has extremely good comprehension of his field but is a moron otherwise. Low strength + high unarmed might be a scrawny but very technically skilled martial artist, etc.

I wouldn’t want to cut those sorts of possibilities. But I am in favor of a softer limitation. Like maybe have skills cap out at 70 or so if your SPECIAL attribute is 2 or lower, because at that point your character should be downright crippled. 

But conversely, if the SPECIAL is 9+, the max for associated skills could be 130 or something instead of the normal 100, giving you the ability to become exceptionally skilled. 

19 minutes ago, Centurion said:

Gun play/combat from F4 (slightly tweaked to implement bullet penetration based on material type and return of crits outside of vats based on LUCK)

I’d revert VATS back to freezing time instead of slowing it. Actually, I’d change a LOT about VATS in general across all the games. But yeah, the crit meter needs to go.

20 minutes ago, Centurion said:

Power Armor frame and customization system from F4

I know this one is unpopular, but I would do away with the frames myself and just go back to it being two pieces: armor and helmet. I would keep the size and power from Fallout 4.

Main thing, though, I think it should be super rare and valuable, with 100% damage threshold instead of resistance, meaning any hits below a certain level of damage will not hurt you at all (goes both ways, your level 4 scrub of a hero shouldn’t be able to down BoS Paladins with a 10mm pistol). There is also no fusion core mechanic.

To balance, player characters shouldn’t be able to effectively upgrade or repair suits on their own, as this is supposed to be super advanced technology that even the Chinese failed to replicate. This would make befriending advanced groups like the BoS much more rewarding, as they will provide a supremely valuable service (and still for a costly price). Maybe you can unlock a perk to do it yourself eventually, but it should be difficult to earn (if a quest perk) or very high level (if a normal one). 

All this would make power armor the sort of tool you want to save for the most dangerous areas, or can only be worn regularly in the late-game when you’ve acquired the resources to maintain it. Otherwise, the cost and obscurity of upkeep is too prohibitive. 

33 minutes ago, Centurion said:

FNV style dialogue system that doesn’t freeze time (no 4 different ways to say yes bullshit)

I can take or leave the freeze time. It’s definitely more immersive without, but from a design standpoint it can be extremely difficult to keep everything in real time. Like, if a dragon attacks during some merchant’s attempt to sell you apples in Skyrim, they’ll just keep on talking like nothing is happening and can even screw some things up and cause you to choose between missing dialogue or miss an event taking place. To me, that’s worse than the time freeze.

But if it can be done really well, then I’m all for it.

Definitely agreed on the four ways to say yes BS.

36 minutes ago, Centurion said:

Blank slate character creation (no WHERES SHAUN?! story)

I’m for this. But what is your opinion on giving us the ability to express (either through a Creation screen or early tutorial dialogue like Doc Mitchell) some details about our background that WE choose, and stick with us throughout the game?

Like maybe total blank slate can be one option among many, but we can also have the opportunity to say "oh yeah, I was a tribal, soldier, merchant, mercenary, pilgrim, raider, wanderer, etc." very vaguely, and the game will remember that and provide us some unique dialogue options throughout the game to reflect that background. Maybe even unique solutions to certain quests because your history makes you familiar with certain aspects of it.

43 minutes ago, Centurion said:

FUCK RADIANT QUESTS

I’m fine with them as optional side activities, like say I join a caravan company as a guard, it would be cool to be able to do repeatable quests protecting cargo as it travels around the map, maybe with some scripted encounters thrown in. That way I don’t just finish a few quests and then my business with them is just concluded forever. Red Dead Redemption 2 did this extremely well. 

But I am for this ONLY if radiant quests aren’t used as a crutch or replacement for hand crafted ones whatsoever. It should only be for side activities, not used for any story quests or content that is required for any serious form of progression.

47 minutes ago, Centurion said:

Post story play with meaningful post story developments (see the consequences of your actions

My main problem with post play is it tends to limit the quantity and significance of the impacts that the story can have on the world.

The reason it couldn’t work with New Vegas is because the Battle for Hoover Dam changes everything. And not only that, but there are like five different ways it can change everything, and that’s not even getting into all the additional variables like side factions and characters whose stories go in many wildly different directions depending on your actions. It would’ve required like an entire new game’s worth of content just to provide a meaningful endgame to New Vegas. Which is exactly why I love its ending so much. It really feels like we were able to have a huge impact.

Comparatively, the Bethesda-style post-ending gameplay tends to fall into one of three categories.

1) The events should change the world in a meaningful way but simply don’t (Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 2).

2) The main quest is mostly divorced from everything in the world so it can be barely acknowledged (Skyrim, Fallout 4). 

3) Your impact on the world is generally minimal and consequences don’t really matter much by the endgame (Fallout 3).

My favorite of the three is the last one, but if I have to choose, I’ll take the New Vegas style any time. I like to have lots of opportunities to have lots of wildly varying impacts. With unlimited time and money, I’d love to see a postgame that reflects all those possibilities, but that’s not very likely to happen. 

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3 hours ago, The Good Doctor said:

@Centurion  If I didn’t comment on something, it means I pretty much just agree with what you said.

 

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I would personally take this a step further to make it unknown if you passed or failed at all. Change the NPC response dialogue based on whether you passed or failed the skill check, but don’t tell the player which one actually happened. Would make your skills impacting dialogue feel more seamless and discourage exploitation.

I wouldn’t go all in on this, just because attributes and skills, while related, represent fundamentally different things, and I think the limitations it would put on RP potential would not be worth the improvements it might bring to balancing certain systems.

Something like low charisma + high speech can be a viable archetype. Like a speech writer, or a person who is awkward in delivery but always knows what to say. Someone with low intelligence + high science might be a sort of idiot savant, who has extremely good comprehension of his field but is a moron otherwise. Low strength + high unarmed might be a scrawny but very technically skilled martial artist, etc.

I wouldn’t want to cut those sorts of possibilities. But I am in favor of a softer limitation. Like maybe have skills cap out at 70 or so if your SPECIAL attribute is 2 or lower, because at that point your character should be downright crippled. 

But conversely, if the SPECIAL is 9+, the max for associated skills could be 130 or something instead of the normal 100, giving you the ability to become exceptionally skilled. 

I’d revert VATS back to freezing time instead of slowing it. Actually, I’d change a LOT about VATS in general across all the games. But yeah, the crit meter needs to go.

I know this one is unpopular, but I would do away with the frames myself and just go back to it being two pieces: armor and helmet. I would keep the size and power from Fallout 4.

Main thing, though, I think it should be super rare and valuable, with 100% damage threshold instead of resistance, meaning any hits below a certain level of damage will not hurt you at all (goes both ways, your level 4 scrub of a hero shouldn’t be able to down BoS Paladins with a 10mm pistol). There is also no fusion core mechanic.

To balance, player characters shouldn’t be able to effectively upgrade or repair suits on their own, as this is supposed to be super advanced technology that even the Chinese failed to replicate. This would make befriending advanced groups like the BoS much more rewarding, as they will provide a supremely valuable service (and still for a costly price). Maybe you can unlock a perk to do it yourself eventually, but it should be difficult to earn (if a quest perk) or very high level (if a normal one). 

All this would make power armor the sort of tool you want to save for the most dangerous areas, or can only be worn regularly in the late-game when you’ve acquired the resources to maintain it. Otherwise, the cost and obscurity of upkeep is too prohibitive. 

I can take or leave the freeze time. It’s definitely more immersive without, but from a design standpoint it can be extremely difficult to keep everything in real time. Like, if a dragon attacks during some merchant’s attempt to sell you apples in Skyrim, they’ll just keep on talking like nothing is happening and can even screw some things up and cause you to choose between missing dialogue or miss an event taking place. To me, that’s worse than the time freeze.

But if it can be done really well, then I’m all for it.

Definitely agreed on the four ways to say yes BS.

I’m for this. But what is your opinion on giving us the ability to express (either through a Creation screen or early tutorial dialogue like Doc Mitchell) some details about our background that WE choose, and stick with us throughout the game?

Like maybe total blank slate can be one option among many, but we can also have the opportunity to say "oh yeah, I was a tribal, soldier, merchant, mercenary, pilgrim, raider, wanderer, etc." very vaguely, and the game will remember that and provide us some unique dialogue options throughout the game to reflect that background. Maybe even unique solutions to certain quests because your history makes you familiar with certain aspects of it.

I’m fine with them as optional side activities, like say I join a caravan company as a guard, it would be cool to be able to do repeatable quests protecting cargo as it travels around the map, maybe with some scripted encounters thrown in. That way I don’t just finish a few quests and then my business with them is just concluded forever. Red Dead Redemption 2 did this extremely well. 

But I am for this ONLY if radiant quests aren’t used as a crutch or replacement for hand crafted ones whatsoever. It should only be for side activities, not used for any story quests or content that is required for any serious form of progression.

My main problem with post play is it tends to limit the quantity and significance of the impacts that the story can have on the world.

The reason it couldn’t work with New Vegas is because the Battle for Hoover Dam changes everything. And not only that, but there are like five different ways it can change everything, and that’s not even getting into all the additional variables like side factions and characters whose stories go in many wildly different directions depending on your actions. It would’ve required like an entire new game’s worth of content just to provide a meaningful endgame to New Vegas. Which is exactly why I love its ending so much. It really feels like we were able to have a huge impact.

Comparatively, the Bethesda-style post-ending gameplay tends to fall into one of three categories.

1) The events should change the world in a meaningful way but simply don’t (Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 2).

2) The main quest is mostly divorced from everything in the world so it can be barely acknowledged (Skyrim, Fallout 4). 

3) Your impact on the world is generally minimal and consequences don’t really matter much by the endgame (Fallout 3).

My favorite of the three is the last one, but if I have to choose, I’ll take the New Vegas style any time. I like to have lots of opportunities to have lots of wildly varying impacts. With unlimited time and money, I’d love to see a postgame that reflects all those possibilities, but that’s not very likely to happen. 

About your last point, I thought Broken Steel did an admirable job of it. It wasn't perfect, but Bethesda even did stuff like move NPC's away (like with the Doctor from Rivet City), add a bunch of post-game random events and tiny events that really did make me think time had advanced. 

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Just now, BigBossBalrog said:

About your last point, I thought Broken Steel did an admirable job of it. It wasn't perfect, but Bethesda even did stuff like move NPC's away (like with the Doctor from Rivet City), add a bunch of post-game random events and tiny events that really did make me think time had advanced. 

Fallout 3 was basically just a brief conflict between two relatively small factions over control of a single building. That’s why it was almost doable. Even then, Bethesda had to soft retcon it so the purifier only cleaned the basin instead of spreading pure water everywhere, because the latter would have changed more than they could reasonably depict.

Not to mention they completely neutered the evil ending where you poison it and the Capital Wasteland becomes a grave. Now it only kills like three generic beggars and you have to poison them yourself.

Even with Fallout 3, which has the lowest stakes by far and an MQ that has very little to do with the rest of the game, post-ending gameplay that represents their original intentions was still more than they had the time or resources to handle.

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