Civil War Aftermath OOC #4

[The Good Doctor]

8 hours ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

More like an excuse. It seems like just gold and influence to me, which is still pretty dang alien for me. It's so weak of a motivator that it really just disgusts me.

Same goes for Theo. The "Hail Bretonia!" stuff is just an excuse for him to take power for himself and his family. Maven is the same, except the stakes are lower and she doesn’t sadistically torment her enemies to nearly the extent that Theo does.

Or even Baldur. I can agree that protecting his family is a more relatable goal, even when it comes to his worst crimes like killing Ulfric. But he has done some fucked up shit that did not contribute to this goal in the slightest and seemed to only be to satisfy a sadistic impulse. I still don’t think he’s nearly as bad as Maven, but he has done things for reasons that I don’t think she ever would.

[BigBossBalrog]

Theo let one of his relatives get raped just because he wanted them to suffer. He does thing just cause he's a sociopath and a sadist. 

[The Good Doctor]

17 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said:

Theo let one of his relatives get raped just because he wanted them to suffer. He does thing just cause he's a sociopath and a sadist. 

Yeah, besides the time Yornar ate that soldier’s soul for basically nothing, I’d say this is my vote the most evil singular act that’s been shown. It wasn’t even to make a statement, because he killed every witness afterwards.

Tbh, him and Yornar are kinda neck-and-neck for me as #2. I lean Yornar but could probably be convinced either way.

[ColonelKillaBee]

2 hours ago, The Good Doctor said:

Same goes for Theo. The "Hail Bretonia!" stuff is just an excuse for him to take power for himself and his family. Maven is the same, except the stakes are lower and she doesn’t sadistically torment her enemies to nearly the extent that Theo does.

Or even Baldur. I can agree that protecting his family is a more relatable goal, even when it comes to his worst crimes like killing Ulfric. But he has done some fucked up shit that did not contribute to this goal in the slightest and seemed to only be to satisfy a sadistic impulse. I still don’t think he’s nearly as bad as Maven, but he has done things for reasons that I don’t think she ever would.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree here, especially on Baldur. Does he indulge himself in his urges, sure, but part of that pleasure is dishing out pain to someone he considers a threat to his happiness and his family’s safety. He still sees Ulrin when he kills Imperials like Trevis.

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 hour ago, BigBossBalrog said:

Theo let one of his relatives get raped just because he wanted them to suffer. He does thing just cause he's a sociopath and a sadist. 

Point of view. I think he actually does care for High Rock, and his family while also being a sadist and also in it for his own power and influence. More than one thing can be true.

The thing with his cousin or sister, whoever was fucked, but hey, she did endanger High Rock and expose them to foreign threats by challenging his rule. Still more understandable to me than greed. Vindictiveness and revenge is pretty evil yea but still. I recognize what it is.

All we see in game of Maven tho is the evil bitch side who makes people disappear just for not being up to snuff or trying to quit their job.

[BigBossBalrog]

8 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Point of view. I think he actually does care for High Rock, and his family while also being a sadist and also in it for his own power and influence. More than one thing can be true.

The thing with his cousin or sister, whoever was fucked, but hey, she did endanger High Rock and expose them to foreign threats by challenging his rule. Still more understandable to me than greed. Vindictiveness and revenge is pretty evil yea but still. I recognize what it is.

All we see in game of Maven tho is the evil bitch side who makes people disappear just for not being up to snuff or trying to quit their job.

A sociopath can have attachments and genuinely like people; what makes a sociopath a sociopath is they'll always put there interests before anyone else. It's always "ME ME ME!" and that perfectly describes Theo's mindset. If the chips come down to it; High Rock and his family be dammed if he's given a choice between them or himself. Ultimatley he wants power; because it lets him commit his sick urges. 

I completely disagree; killing for the sake of monetary value always has a "nothing personal" detachment to it; while the act or ordering someone to be raped and killed in the most vile way possible is mired in pettiness, pure hatred, and just a slew of negative emotions. The desire to do something bad for money is not worse then doing something just for the sake of the evil act. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

And as for Maven, from what I’ve seen, her only care in relation to her family is their use, and that they share the name Black-Briar with her. I’m sure she does care about her family in that way, the same way one cares for tools.

[ColonelKillaBee]

3 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said:

A sociopath can have attachments and genuinely like people; what makes a sociopath a sociopath is they'll always put there interests before anyone else. It's always "ME ME ME!" and that perfectly describes Theo's mindset. If the chips come down to it; High Rock and his family be dammed if he's given a choice between them or himself. Ultimatley he wants power; because it lets him commit his sick urges. 

I completely disagree; killing for the sake of monetary value always has a "nothing personal"; while the act or ordering someone to be raped and killed in the most vile way possible is mired in pettiness, pure hatred, and just a slew of negative emotions. The desire to do something bad for money is not worse then doing something just for the sake of the evil act. 

If anything, killing with the thinking of “nothing personal” befits a sociopath far more than what you’re describing in relation to Theo.

Sociopaths kill without empathy, that’s their shtick. And is far more “evil” in my eyes.

Theo definitely cares for his family imo more than what’s being represented in this convo.

[ColonelKillaBee]

I think you’re just triggered still from getting kicked out of High Rock tbh  

[BigBossBalrog]

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

If anything, killing with the thinking of “nothing personal” befits a sociopath far more than what you’re describing in relation to Theo.

Sociopaths kill without empathy, that’s their shtick.

Theo definitely cares for his family imo more than what’s being represented in this convo.

Someone who kills for money can have empathy. Tony Soprano, for example, feels horrible for some of his victims, but the greed overcomes that. It's still having empathy, your desire for money just overcomes that. Being a sociopath means you don't have that empathy at all. 

[BigBossBalrog]

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I think you’re just triggered still from getting kicked out of High Rock tbh  

Not really; no  Dales certainly is; but it's given me the opportunity to makes her even more fucked up 

[ColonelKillaBee]

3 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said:

Someone who kills for money can have empathy. Tony Soprano, for example, feels horrible for some of his victims, but the greed overcomes that. It's still having empathy, your desire for money just overcomes that. Being a sociopath means you don't have that empathy at all. 

Had to rephrase since killing impersonally doesn’t necessarily mean they have no empathy but you do realize typically those who do are also sociopaths right?

Others that kill for greed but still feel guilty don’t typically last in the business, and usually need strong reasons for doing so, like in the example of hunger I gave earlier, which I understand.

Most people can’t kill for just greed alone, like true sociopaths and the ones like Maven who run the crime world.

[ColonelKillaBee]

That’s also why a lot of these mafia types take drugs so that they can kill. You hear it all throughout hip hop and see it in movies too. That’s real. Cocaine and crack, heroine, pop a Molly before a gun run, etc.

[The Good Doctor]

39 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

And as for Maven, from what I’ve seen, her only care in relation to her family is their use, and that they share the name Black-Briar with her. I’m sure she does care about her family in that way, the same way one cares for tools.

Very similar to Tywin Lannister in that regard. Who in all fairness I have argued is one of the most evil characters in Game of Thrones.  But she doesn’t only care about them as tools. The Black-Briar name matters to her, even if she’s not the loving sort.

The one thing I would give Theo is that I believe he genuinely cares about his family. I don’t buy that he actually cares about High Rock in any serious way besides as the foundation for his own power, though. He didn’t kill his sister-in-law for challenging his rule. She was the queen by all rights. He challenged her rule, and got thousands killed because he wanted power. Hell, he orchestrated a fake assassination attempt on his own life just so he could frame the Rolstons and justify his actions. He had to deceive his country just to get their support.

I also find it hard to view his bid for power as an act of love for his family. It wasn’t like with Baldur who believed overthrowing his king was necessary to protect them. What Theo did was raw ambition, because he’s the most Breton Breton ever. I know he loves them, but just having the capacity for love doesn’t really mean much from a moral standpoint. And it’s a trait not really related to most of his crimes.

34 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said:

Someone who kills for money can have empathy. Tony Soprano, for example, feels horrible for some of his victims, but the greed overcomes that.

In all fairness, this doesn’t apply to Maven. Or Theo for that matter. That’s why I said I don’t think Tony’s as bad.  

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 minute ago, The Good Doctor said:

Very similar to Tywin Lannister in that regard. Who in all fairness I have argued is one of the most evil characters in Game of Thrones.  But she doesn’t only care about them as tools. The Black-Briar name matters to her, even if she’s not the loving sort.

 

In the rp maybe, which yea this is about the RP lol but I still view Maven through the lens of the game, and tbh I don't really remember much in the rp that suggests otherwise. Letting someone who killed a Black-Briar roam around Riften would undermine her directly.

As for Theo, fair enough, I forgot about all of that. In that case, Theo is indeed a true usurper and I do concede on that point.

[ColonelKillaBee]

I still say she's more evil than Yornar tho  I bet if she could, she'd eat the souls of people who try leaving her employment. She's only limited by magical ability.

Yornar however in his years as Emperor has shown to be reasonable with many and has ptsd from a lost lover and eras fighting elves. Which is who his anger is pointed at. It makes sense. He's definitely not the Dark Lord he appeared to be before imo. He's evil sure, for elves lol but eh, Pelinal was pretty bad for elves and anyone that smelled like elf too, as were the many shezarrine, and other random Nords in history. 

Yornar's just one of the more thorough elf exterminators. Tamriel's no stranger to genocidal Nord kings.

[The Good Doctor]

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

In the rp maybe, which yea this is about the RP lol but I still view Maven through the lens of the game, and tbh I don't really remember much in the rp that suggests otherwise. Letting someone who killed a Black-Briar roam around Riften would undermine her directly.

That’s fair. I didn’t expand much on Maven as a character from what we already saw from her in the game. I would’ve if I’d ever gotten around to writing the Boldir origins stuff, but I can’t exactly bust that out in an argument as if it exists anywhere outside my head and my notes.  

That’s how I’ve always treated her, though. She cares about her clan/family//business as an abstract, but not in an especially loving way. She was prepared to let Ingun die if it came to that, but she wouldn’t have been if Ingun was her only heir at the time.

[The Good Doctor]

46 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I bet if she could, she'd eat the souls of people who try leaving her employment.

Only if she got something out of it. She wouldn’t do it for shits and giggles or because she’s feeling slightly hungry. But yeah, you’re right it’s definitely not beneath her.

46 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Yornar however in his years as Emperor has shown to be reasonable with many and has ptsd from a lost lover and eras fighting elves. Which is who his anger is pointed at. It makes sense. 

So a man suffering from PTSD and blames an entire race for his anger takes power and pursues genocide. Sounds familiar.  

Huh, come to think of it maybe I’m giving Yornar too hard a time. I think we might’ve been born under the same birthsign.

[Witchking of Angmar]

Been a while since I poked my head into this corner our realm. Haven't been in the mood for TES for a long while.

As for Yornar, yep he's evil. Better or worse is up to each person. He's not really a sadist as he derives no joy from suffering. He's more a ball of cold hatred that he makes up excuses for.

[BigBossBalrog]

4 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Been a while since I poked my head into this corner our realm. Haven't been in the mood for TES for a long while.

As for Yornar, yep he's evil. Better or worse is up to each person. He's not really a sadist as he derives no joy from suffering. He's more a ball of cold hatred that he makes up excuses for.

I'm still active, but honestly the lack of new TES6 news; and the fact it's probably going to suck has dampened my mood considerably for TES related stuff  I'm more of a Souls guy now anyhow.

[The Good Doctor]

I’m much more interested in our RP than actual TES. I’m more hyped for what could happen in chapter 4 than in TES 6.

[Witchking of Angmar]

Just now, The Good Doctor said:

I’m much more interested in our RP than actual TES. I’m more hyped for what could happen in chapter 4 than in TES 6.

Hopefully chapter 4 will bring back some interest for me as well. Right now I've sadly lost enough interest that I stopped reading and am really far behind.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Hopefully chapter 4 will bring back some interest for me as well. Right now I've sadly lost enough interest that I stopped reading and am really far behind.

On the bright side, that doesn’t really mean much considering how slowly the writing has been.  Colonel caught up on like half a year’s worth of posts in a week.

[ColonelKillaBee]

46 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

So a man suffering from PTSD and blames an entire race for his anger takes power and pursues genocide. Sounds familiar.  

I mean, popular opinions aside, the dude definitely had rationale behind his thinking. It was dark lol for certain, but it wasn't random at all, it was calculated. That doesn't make it less evil of course but its not exactly alien. We're no strangers to genocide either. Hell Hitler wasn't even the worst we've seen historically.

And in the context of TES again it's like business as usual  I'm not really phased by it.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Don't mistake what I'm saying for defending Yornar's character lol or Hitler  I'm not saying they aren't bad dudes. I'm just saying for me, what's "most evil" is something I have trouble rationalizing. I can play devil's advocate all day with some of these guys but couldn't do that for just a business tycoon like something you see in Outer Worlds. That shit, greed plus incompetence, for me it doesn't get worse than that, as it effects every aspect of society and often causes the acts we're talking about here.

You could argue for instance that the greed and corruption of the nations in the treaty of Versailles led to hitler in the first place.