Roleplayer’s Off Topic Thread #5

[The Good Doctor]

4 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

You’re not looking at it from their perspective though, in the case of the Hlaalu. It may be an ad hominem, but unfortunately as hominems are strong tools in persuasion. And even so I wouldn’t say it’s totally unfounded.

You’re right, I’m not. Because on that topic, I wasn’t arguing from their perspective. I was arguing that his submission to the Nords is less of a bitch move than his house’s submission to the Imperials, because one is just a guy adapting his values while another is a faction condemning their people for power.

I don’t give a rat’s ass how the rest of the Hlaalu would feel about what the farmer did. They’re already much worse and would become hypocritical to boot if they criticized him for what he’s done.

[Centurion]

I think the point is trying to make is if Colonel brought up Hlaalu in the debate to prove that the Stormcloaks aren’t repressing people, then the ubber sensitive tumblrinas would claim he’s using a tamrielic version of a “token black guy” argument

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, The Good Doctor said:

You’re right, I’m not. Because on that topic, I wasn’t arguing from their perspective. I was arguing that his submission to the Nords is less of a bitch move than his house’s submission to the Imperials, because one is just a guy adapting his values while another is a faction condemning their people for power.

I don’t give a rat’s ass how the rest of the Hlaalu would feel about what the farmer did. They’re already much worse and would become hypocritical to boot if they criticized him for what he’s done.

Not the hlaalu, the other Dunmer in general.

I am looking at it from their perspective because that’s how you know how to convince someone in a debate. The very first thing I did when writing the SC Bible was try to convince myself the Empire was right and to look from their perspective. That and the suspicion of suck ups is something I’m used to hearing about in my culture so I know how people like that think. 

Condemning your people for power can be seen as adapting your values to get ahead. Ones just more dramatic than the other but ring of the same characteristics. 

[The Good Doctor]

9 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Its not just about what the Nords respect, because people look to examples to follow. It undermines the argument because people on the fence or actual milk drinkers might say the Nords don’t like hard work, they just like those that submit to them. Even Niranye is an example of that. 

And to those people I would say that the Stormcloak patriot beggar in Windhelm is pretty good evidence that they do not just hand out better lives to people who kiss their asses. If “submitting” to the Nords comes in the form of working hard and contributing to their society, then I don’t blame them for favoring the people who do it over the people who don’t. 

6 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

In fact I don’t actually entirely believe Nords don’t stop you from succeeding. They might respect you more for working hard and not complaining but that doesn’t mean more Nords for instance will start turning up to Dunmer taverns and such. 

Having fairly xenophobic populace and not showing up in elven taverns isn’t the same as stopping them from succeeding. We have proof of successful elves in Windhelm, and that’s the most extreme of all the cities. It is presumably even less difficult elsewhere in Stormcloak lands.

The only people I would say might be actively prevented from succeeding are Argonians, since they are actually forced to live a certain way. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

And yea, I don’t trust someone that is simply good at adapting to their surroundings. Good for him that he’s doing something about his predicament but I wouldn’t be surprised if he abandoned that approach first chance he got in a different setting.

[The Good Doctor]

5 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Not the hlaalu, the other Dunmer in general.

I wasn’t arguing on behalf of them either. I understand looking at things from other perspectives and whatnot. But that’s not my point. I was never trying to defend how the Dunmer view him to start with. I was arguing that what he did is a less bitchy move than what his family did from my completely modern POV.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, The Good Doctor said:

And to those people I would say that the Stormcloak patriot beggar in Windhelm is pretty good evidence that they do not just hand out better lives to people who kiss their asses. If “submitting” to the Nords comes in the form of working hard and contributing to their society, then I don’t blame them for favoring the people who do it over the people who don’t. 

Having fairly xenophobic populace and not showing up in elven taverns isn’t the same as stopping them from succeeding. We have proof of successful elves in Windhelm, and that’s the most extreme of all the cities. It is presumably even less difficult elsewhere in Stormcloak lands.

The only people I would say might be actively prevented from succeeding are Argonians, since they are actually forced to live a certain way. 

Not saying they hand out better lives, but “stopping them from succeeding” ain’t always literal. Culturally this can be done simply by not supporting business owners as much due to racism.

And yes we do have proof of successful elves but how they became successful can be brought under scrutiny. There were black people that got ahead during the most racist times in our history. Doesn’t mean American culture didn’t make that hard as fuck to do.

Dont forget who you’re talking to here, I’ve used these same arguments before. I don’t disagree.

Im simply saying that you gotta be careful what you give someone in a debate because it can be used against you. You may have an answer for every circumstance but why make their job easier? I give them nothing, and certainly wouldn’t remind them the Hlaalus are known for adapting around dominant cultures for their benefit.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, The Good Doctor said:

I wasn’t arguing on behalf of them either. I understand looking at things from other perspectives and whatnot. But that’s not my point. I was never trying to defend how the Dunmer view him to start with. I was arguing that what he did is a less bitchy move than what his family did from my completely modern POV.

I never said it was more bitchy.

[ColonelKillaBee]

29 minutes ago, Centurion said:

I think the point is trying to make is if Colonel brought up Hlaalu in the debate to prove that the Stormcloaks aren’t repressing people, then the ubber sensitive tumblrinas would claim he’s using a tamrielic version of a “token black guy” argument

Exactly.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I never said it was more bitchy.

Well that’s exactly what I was arguing against. My point from the start was that what he did was different than what his house did.

This entire conversation started with me pointing out that they were similar, so I didn’t feel like it was necessary to stress that further.

6 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Not saying they hand out better lives, but “stopping them from succeeding” ain’t always literal. Culturally this can be done simply by not supporting business owners as much due to racism.

Which the Nords don’t seem to do considering they’re buying Hlaalu’s crops and we’ve got multiple elf-owned businesses in the city that are doing very well. Two of them (the stable and the alchemist) are under no scrutiny, making the “Hlaalu could be a kiss ass” point moot. 

And I know who I’m arguing with.  Which is why I’m a little surprised by some of what you’re bringing up, since I know that you know they are bad points.

8 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Im simply saying that you gotta be careful what you give someone in a debate because it can be used against you. You may have an answer for every circumstance but why make their job easier? I give them nothing, and certainly wouldn’t remind them the Hlaalus are known for adapting around dominant cultures for their benefit.

I wouldn’t bring House Hlaalu’s adaptability up in an argument about Nords because I think it would be entirely irrelevant to that debate, not because I think it would help the opposition in any way. 

[Centurion]

Did y’all see that Steven Hawkin died?

[The Good Doctor]

I brought it up with you guys though because it’s a neat and true bit of background info that is easy to overlook. I’d have no reason to mention it in many ther contexts. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

15 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Well that’s exactly what I was arguing against. My point from the start was that what he did was different than what his house did.

This entire conversation started with me pointing out that they were similar, so I didn’t feel like it was necessary to stress that further.

Which the Nords don’t seem to do considering they’re buying Hlaalu’s crops and we’ve got multiple elf-owned businesses in the city that are doing very well. Two of them (the stable and the alchemist) are under no scrutiny, making the “Hlaalu could be a kiss ass” point moot. 

And I know who I’m arguing with.  Which is why I’m a little surprised by some of what you’re bringing up, since I know that you know they are bad points.

I wouldn’t bring House Hlaalu’s adaptability up in an argument about Nords because I think it would be entirely irrelevant to that debate, not because I think it would help the opposition in any way. 

I’m bringing them up because they’re common points I have to debate against. I’m saying I see how people come to these conclusions, not that I agree with them, and it’s best to avoid them coming up entirely rather than having to fend off more and more points.

The conversation for me started with saying that I didn’t want to admit that what hlaalu is doing could just be his adapting to whatever culture he’s in proximity to. I said it more colorfully but that’s essentially what I meant.

Its not irrelevant to me because one man might say your liking hard work is really just you liking a yes man. That isn’t something I could say looking at Hlaalu on his own merits. But that’s where the ad hominems come in and I don’t like helping people throw ad hominems at me if I can avoid it

[The Good Doctor]

47 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Respec. I’m just gonna play as a warrior more than likely till I get high enough to spec towards the playstyle.

What level are you? You’re obviously going to want to focus on Vigor to get your desired amount of health.

Put most of your points into faith. I can’t remember what the highest level lightening miracles require, but I think it’s pretty high. Like in the 50s. 

Strength and Skill should be mostly leveled evenly. I think the axe scales the same with both of them. And I think a simple refined gem is the best one for upgrading it.

Whatever is left should go to Endurance.

Ignore Intelligence, Attunement, and Luck. Maybe touch on Vitality, but only if you have the points to spare. This is not a good build for extremely heavy armors, sadly. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

4 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

I brought it up with you guys though because it’s a neat and true bit of background info that is easy to overlook. I’d have no reason to mention it in many ther contexts. 

I realize that. That’s why I also mentioned we weren’t actually debating lol so it didn’t matter in the end. I was just saying that in relation to me praising Hlaalu I tend to avoid mentioning their checkered past lol. That’s all. 

Not that there was something wrong with you specifically bringing it up. I’m just saying I didn’t because tumblr often has me discussing in debate mode basically.

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 minute ago, The Good Doctor said:

What level are you? You’re obviously going to want to focus on Vigor to get your desired amount of health.

Put most of your points into faith. I can’t remember what the highest level lightening miracles require, but I think it’s pretty high. Like in the 50s. 

Strength and Skill should be mostly leveled evenly. I think the axe scales the same with both of them. I think a simple refined gem is the best one for upgrading it.

Whatever is left should go to Endurance.

Ignore Arcane, Intelligence, Attunement, and Luck. Maybe touch on Vitality, but only if you have the points to spare. This is not a good build for extremely heavy armors, sadly. 

I’ll probably be sticking to knight armor for this build or one of the similar medium setups. Don’t think I’d need much vitality luckily.

I haven’t started yet so this is a hypothetical. I think I used up all my respecs on my main character. 

Guess I wouldn’t need that much stamina in this case, I mainly needed it before because of Zwei’s swings so I can sacrifice points to vigor and faith. 30 stamina is the minimum for most builds.

By skill do you mean dexterity? I forgot the stat names.

Christ, so many stats to look at.

[TheCzarsHussar]

13 minutes ago, Centurion said:

Did y’all see that Steven Hawkin died?

Damn.

[TheCzarsHussar]

9 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

The conversation for me started with saying that I didn’t want to admit that what hlaalu is doing could just be his adapting to whatever culture he’s in proximity to. I said it more colorfully but that’s essentiakku what I meant

Oh no, Colonel is turning Asian!

[The Good Doctor]

8 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Its not irrelevant to me because one man might say your liking hard work is really just you liking a yes man.

Which is pretty easily disproven. Nords only liking yes men only works as an argument if Hlaalu and that fence lady are our only examples of successful elves, which ain’t the case. So Hlaalu being a  doesn’t really matter if the only constant across all examples, including kiss ups, non kiss ups, and one potential kiss up, is that Nords respect the hard workers.

I get what you’re saying. You can see where an anti-Stormcloak person would use this in an argument, but they would be using a point that is false and irrelevant and I’m perfectly fine with my opposition doing that. It only shows how far they’re willing to reach and makes them appear less credible.

[The Good Doctor]

4 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

By skill do you mean dexterity? I forgot the stat names.

 My bad. Yeah, I did. It’s called Skill in Bloodborne. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

16 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

 

Which the Nords don’t seem to do considering they’re buying Hlaalu’s crops and we’ve got multiple elf-owned businesses in the city that are doing very well. Two of them (the stable and the alchemist) are under no scrutiny, making the “Hlaalu could be a kiss ass” point moot. 

This wasn’t in relation to the Hlaalu, I’m just pointing out that it’s not entirely true. They’re doing fine yes, but the other establishments in the grey quarter aint. Whatever the reason may be. You hear some of the guards themselves holding their noses up to the name of their establishment. 

Niranye herself said it took her a lot of effort to get where she did, and a lot of ass kissing. Not everyone is up for that. This isn’t in relation to the rest of our debate btw.

[Centurion]

1 minute ago, The Good Doctor said:

 So Hlaalu being

Excellent use of that emote. So satisfying

[The Good Doctor]

6 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Guess I wouldn’t need that much stamina in this case, I mainly needed it before because of Zwei’s swings so I can sacrifice points to vigor and faith. 30 stamina is the minimum for most builds.

Yeah, you won’t need nearly as much for the axe as oil did Zwei. I don’t think I even had 30. It was probably more like mid 20s. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

2 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Which is pretty easily disproven. Nords only liking yes men only works as an argument if Hlaalu and that fence lady are our only examples of successful elves, which ain’t the case. So Hlaalu being a  doesn’t really matter if the only constant across all examples, including kiss ups, non kiss ups, and one potential kiss up, is that Nords respect the hard workers.

I get what you’re saying. You can see where an anti-Stormcloak person would use this in an argument, but they would be using a point that is false and irrelevant and I’m perfectly fine with my opposition doing that. It only shows how far they’re willing to reach and makes them appear less credible.

I mean, they’re two of what, four? There’s not a lot of examples to go by so I like to preserve what few examples I have as best I can.

Thats an opinion though that it’s false, and it’s not entirely irrelevant depending on exactly what we’re talking about specifically as I said.

I prefer not to rely on that when I can

[ColonelKillaBee]

17 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Yeah, you won’t need nearly as much for the axe as oil did Zwei. I don’t think I even had 30. It was probably more like mid 20s. 

Any weapons similar to that axe that could benefit from this particular build? Maybe I could practice with something else before I get it earlier on. Shouldn’t be too bad if I stick to the knight set.

Dump points in health, faith is the most important besides health, add points to strength as needed for weapon, add points to stamina and magicka, whatever it’s called as needed for casting and stamina based actions.