Roleplayer’s Off Topic Thread #5

[The Good Doctor]

19 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

This wasn’t in relation to the Hlaalu, I’m just pointing out that it’s not entirely true. They’re doing fine yes, but the other establishments in the grey quarter aint. Whatever the reason may be. You hear some of the guards themselves holding their noses up to the name of their establishment. 

Niranye herself said it took her a lot of effort to get where she did, and a lot of ass kissing. Not everyone is up for that. This isn’t in relation to the rest of our debate btw.

People like what they know. Especially proud and stubborn peoples like the Nords who don’t exactly live in a cultural melting pot. If I was a Nord raised in Windhelm, I’d prefer to drink at Candlehearth Hall surrounded by friends than travel into the slums to a bar run by a guy who doesn’t like my kind and where I’m probably just gonna sit awkwardly and drink while people glare at me. I’m not racist for that.

And yes, I know it can go both ways. A Dunmer of the Grey Quarter would no doubt feel out of place going to CHH as well (ignoring the Dunmer bard who people seem to like). And I don’t blame him for not giving them his business either.

But someone who is not only from an extremely alien culture, but an overtly hostile one historically, can hardly just set up a business in the capital of the place they were hostile to, refuse to adapt or change even a little bit, and expect the locals to give them the same kind of business that they do themselves. That’s like supplying a product that there is no demand for and then blaming the system because nobody is willing to pay.

18 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I mean, they’re two of what, four? There’s not a lot of examples to go by so I like to preserve what few examples I have as best I can.

Thats an opinion though that it’s false, and it’s not entirely irrelevant depending on exactly what we’re talking about specifically as I said.

I prefer not to rely on that when I can

Two out of four that get represented in-game, yes. But two is all I need to prove my point. Neither of them showed any signs of kissing ass or being anything other than themselves, yet they have better set-ups than many Nords in the city. Hlaalu only succeeding in life because he is potentially a kissass is an extremely weak argument for an Imperial fan to use when we have evidence of people succeeding without resorting to this and no actual proof that he did so.

[The Good Doctor]

Besides, if an Imp fan wants to throw House Hlaalu under the bus in an attempt to score a weak point against the Stormcloaks, then I welcome them to do so. Because now they’re straight up admitting that those who choose to bend their knees to the Empire over the laws of their land (like, say, a certain duel) are in the wrong.

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 minute ago, The Good Doctor said:

People like what they know. Especially proud and stubborn peoples like the Nords who don’t exactly live in a cultural melting pot. If I was a Nord raised in Windhelm, I’d prefer to drink at Candlehearth Hall surrounded by friends than travel into the slums to a bar run by a guy who doesn’t like my kind and where I’m probably just gonna sit awkwardly and drink while people glare at me. I’m not racist for that.

And yes, I know it can go both ways. A Dunmer of the Grey Quarter would no doubt feel out of place going to CHH as well (ignoring the Dunmer bard who people seem to like). And I don’t blame him for not giving them his business either.

But someone who is not only from an extremely alien culture, but an overtly hostile one historically, can hardly just set up a business in the capital of the place they were hostile to, refuse to adapt or change even a little bit, and expect the locals to give them the same kind of business that they do themselves. That’s like supplying a product that there is no demand for and then blaming the system because nobody is willing to pay.

Two out of four that get represented in-game, yes. But two is all I need to prove my point. Neither of them showed any signs of kissing ass or being anything other than themselves, yet they have better set-ups than many Nords in the city. Hlaalu only succeeding in life because he is potentially a kissass is an extremely weak argument for an Imperial fan to use when we have evidence of people succeeding without resorting to this and no actual proof that he did so.

And I agree with this point, for the most part and concerning most Nords.

But at the same time there is no doubt also people that simply refuse to go into a Dunmer estsblishment simply because they don’t like Dunmer or strangers in general. 

Especially when we’re talking about the same people that call Orcs living in the backass of Skyrim where no one wanted to live Anyway an “Afront to their people.” 

[The Good Doctor]

12 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Any weapons similar to that axe that could benefit from this particular build? Maybe I could practice with something else before I get it earlier on. Shouldn’t be too bad if I stick to the knight set.

Maybe, but not that I can remember off the top of my head. You might want to run something different until you eat the axe, then respec. That’s what I did.

13 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Dump points in health, faith is the most important besides health, add points to strength as needed for weapon, add points to stamina and magicka, whatever it’s called as needed for casting and stamina based actions.

I’d say health is the most important early on, but you’re gonna want faith to be our highest stat when all is said and done. And if you’re good at landing hits, I’d say that Strength and Dex are worth more than health as well. Again, long run. 

I wouldn’t mess with the stats needed for casting (other than faith). This isn’t a sorcery build where you want lots of mana. It’s a powerful melee build that is supplemented by lightening magic. In a good duel, you probably won’t cast more than two or three spells. The axe is your main weapon.

[ColonelKillaBee]

4 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Besides, if an Imp fan wants to throw House Hlaalu under the bus in an attempt to score a weak point against the Stormcloaks, then I welcome them to do so. Because now they’re straight up admitting that those who choose to bend their knees to the Empire over the laws of their land (like, say, a certain duel) are in the wrong.

They typically would say that the Nords are no different than the Empire in this case. That they’re having another culture submit to their ways.

Theyd be wrong because the difference is they’re literally in Skyrim, someone else’s home vs in Morrowind, their own home having to deal with an outside influence...

But again  why even bother going through all that when I can simply make my point and never bring up hlaalu’s history

[ColonelKillaBee]

Aaaanyway, we’re going in circles so I’ll let this be my last comment. Like I said I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you said aside from there not being anything in Nord culture that might hold back a foreigner.

I mean, all of these points are in my bible after all.

Im just saying I avoided mentioning what you said because it often gets people accusing me of doing what Centurion mentioned. And I’m often in debate mode when discussing TES stuff. Not that there was something wrong with you bringing it up in the first place for anyone unaware.

I also don’t respect the Hlaalu in the same way when you consider he could be old enough to have been around when Hlaalu was dishonored for betraying their people. I’m suspicious of where his values come from is all.

But I still respect him more than the rest of his Dunmer brethren in Windhelm.

[The Good Doctor]

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

But at the same time there is no doubt also people that simply refuse to go into a Dunmer estsblishment simply because they don’t like Dunmer or strangers in general. 

Absolutely, but even if those people weren’t racist, they still almost certainly wouldn’t have gone there for the reason I gave. I don’t think it’s the Nords -racist ones or otherwise- who are keeping the Dunmer from being very successful. It’s the fact that they’ve tried to establish something that there is zero demand for. 

They built the Corner Club for themselves, and to that I say “good job”. More power to them. There is nothing wrong with that at all. But they aren’t entitled to the business or support of people who they never aimed to please in the first place.

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Like I said I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you said aside from there not being anything in Nord culture that might hold back a foreigner.

I never said there was. In fact, I said the opposite. I just justified it because I feel that there is more to it than the Nords just being racist. Not denying the presence of racism, of course. But it’s not the root of the issue. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

16 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Maybe, but not that I can remember off the top of my head. You might want to run something different until you eat the axe, then respec. That’s what I did.

I’d say health is the most important early on, but you’re gonna want faith to be our highest stat when all is said and done. And if you’re good at landing hits, I’d say that Strength and Dex are worth more than health as well. Again, long run. 

I wouldn’t mess with the stats needed for casting (other than faith). This isn’t a sorcery build where you want lots of mana. It’s a powerful melee build that is supplemented by lightening magic. In a good duel, you probably won’t cast more than two or three spells. The axe is your main weapon.

Ok that makes sense. Faith in this example would basically become my strength skill. It’s the primary stat for damage in relation to the axe and weapons like it. I think I might try something like the lothric sword in the meantime with a lightning enchantment.

And strength was indeed my highest stat when all was said and done.

[The Good Doctor]

17 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Especially when we’re talking about the same people that call Orcs living in the backass of Skyrim where no one wanted to live Anyway an “Afront to their people.” 

To be fair, those Orcs basically crossed into their lands uninvited, claimed some good mines, and said “this is Orc property now. Fuck off” to anyone who came near. Sure, no one was using those spots, but in a society that has borders, taxation, and legal land ownership, I can imagine some people being salty to hear that some daedra worshippers from the mountains came into their hold, struck gold, and called it theirs.

I’m actually surprised none of the Jarls targeted them for this. The orcs have some of their best metals and they’re getting for free what most Nords, including the Dragonborn, would have to pay for. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

21 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Absolutely, but even if those people weren’t racist, they still almost certainly wouldn’t have gone there for the reason I gave. I don’t think it’s the Nords -racist ones or otherwise- who are keeping the Dunmer from being very successful. It’s the fact that they’ve tried to establish something that there is zero demand for. 

They built the Corner Club for themselves, and to that I say “good job”. More power to them. There is nothing wrong with that at all. But they aren’t entitled to the business or support of people who they never aimed to please in the first place.

I never said there was. In fact, I said the opposite. I just justified it because I feel that there is more to it than the Nords just being racist. Not denying the presence of racism, of course. But it’s not the root of the issue. 

I don’t know that I’m entirely convinced of that myself, I’m convinced that the Stormcloaks themselves are not a racist group and that they’re no more or less racist or xenophobic than the rest of the Nords in Skyrim, but while there’s definitely a good reason as to why Nords generally don’t flock to Dunmer businesses, I think there’s just as much chance for it being they simply don’t like the strangeness. As some themselves have stated.

That’s basically what xenophobia is. And I do think Nords are generally more xenophobic than racist. 

Not like there’s even anything wrong with that. It’s their kingdom after all, this ain’t our western liberal society, but it is what it is.

Edit: also, sure there’s a demand for it. They sell mead and ale just like the taverns, and is essentially the same thing with a different name. A demand for taverns with elfy names maybe not. But there’s a demand for what the establishment in fact is. A tavern.

dont remember if they sell sujama and the like though.

[ColonelKillaBee]

9 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

To be fair, those Orcs basically crossed into their lands uninvited, claimed some good mines, and said “this is Orc property now. Fuck off” to anyone who came near. Sure, no one was using those spots, but in a society that has borders, taxation, and legal land ownership, I can imagine some people being salty to hear that some daedra worshippers from the mountains came into their hold, struck gold, and called it theirs.

I’m actually surprised none of the Jarls targeted them for this. The orcs have some of their best metals and they’re getting for free what most Nords, including the Dragonborn, would have to pay for. 

Lol me n @Celanhad a long debate about this ourselves in relation to what Baldur is doing. I agree for the most part but at the same time it is kinda shitty for someone to bitch about that when no one else even tried to occupy that land before and obtain its resources.

Though maybe the Stormcloak guards mention it for the same reason Baldur will, because they have a need for the land now with war and its indeed Nord land. 

[The Good Doctor]

9 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Lol me n Celan had a long debate about this ourselves in relation to what Baldur is doing. I agree for the most part but at the same time it is kinda shitty for someone to bitch about that when no one else even tried to occupy that land before and obtain its resources.

Mining is a gamble. The Nords couldn’t know there was ebony or orichalium or whatever in those exact spots until they started digging. The Orcs seem to be pretty good at hitting good spots. Super lucky, actually, considering the time frame they had to do it VS the Nords. 

I think of it like this. If I owned a large piece of land that had two rich oil reserves under it, but I was only drilling into one and hadn’t yet located the second, I would be pretty pissed if some guy showed up, built a wall on my land, and started drilling without paying me any kind of fee or even letting me get close. I would take it as an affront. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

2 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Mining is a gamble. The Nords couldn’t know there was ebony or orichalium or whatever in those exact spots until they started digging. The Orcs seem to be pretty good at hitting good spots. Super lucky, actually, considering the time frame they had to do it VS the Nords. 

I think of it like this. If I owned a large piece of land that had two rich oil reserves under it, but I was only drilling into one and hadn’t yet located the second, I would be pretty pissed if some guy showed up, built a wall on my land, and started drilling without paying me any kind of fee or even letting me get close. I would take it as an affront. 

I would too but really the land they occupy is only Nord land by name really. Technically it is in holds but there’s companies that go off mining in Skyrim already as we saw in Markarth. Granted the Silverbloods were quick to try and nip that in the bud but it shows that it’s not illegal or anything to mine in parts of Skyrim. In fact the silver bloods weren’t even the Jarl family but they can still own much of the land and the rights to mining particular land.

No ones claimed the rights to the land that the Orcs occupy. 

[The Good Doctor]

14 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I think there’s just as much chance for it being they simply don’t like the strangeness. As some themselves have stated.

And I agree 100%. Which is why a Dunmer who is aware of this can’t expect to establish a business that he knows the Nords will consider strange and have them flock to it.

That’s why I say that they built it for themselves, not the Nords. And if their meager community isn’t resourceful enough to thrive in spite of this, then it’s not the Nords’ fault.

[ColonelKillaBee]

2 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

And I agree 100%. Which is why a Dunmer who is aware of this can’t expect to establish a business that he knows the Nords will consider strange and have them flock to it.

That’s why I say that they built it for themselves, not the Nords. And if their meager community isn’t resourceful enough to thrive in spite of this, then it’s not the Nords’ fault.

In some places strangeness is considered unique and people flock to them because they’re different. 

If they’re guilty of anything I’d say it’s ignorance of Nord culture.

edit: which is in fact cultural xenophobia.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I would too but really the land they occupy is only Nord land by name really. Technically it is in holds but there’s companies that go off mining in Skyrim already as we saw in Markarth. Granted the Silverbloods were quick to try and nip that in the bud but it shows that it’s not illegal or anything to mine in parts of Skyrim. In fact the silver bloods weren’t even the Jarl family but they can still own much of the land and the rights to mining particular land.

No ones claimed the rights to the land that the Orcs occupy. 

We don’t know how the Silver-Bloods got all that land, but there is presumably some legal claim, even if it’s as simple as “their family owned it before we started writing this shit down. -The Jarl”

We know from Hearthfire that even unoccupied sections of land are still owned by the Jarl. They claim the right to all land in a hold that hasn’t been purchased from them. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

5 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

We don’t know how the Silver-Bloods got all that land, but there is presumably some legal claim, even if it’s as simple as “their family owned it before we started writing this shit down. -The Jarl”

We know from Hearthfire that even unoccupied sections of land are still owned by the Jarl. They claim the right to all land in a hold that hasn’t been purchased from them. 

I think it really comes down to the Jarl. And the particular land. They typically don’t claim land unless it’s useful and no one really cared about the Orcs or the land they occupied from what I can tell until they found ores that could be mined. 

Thats like Indian giving. Yea technically there’s legal precedent here and with wartime I’m sure not above using it, but it’s still pretty damn shitty, especially calling it an “affront” when the Nords likely didn’t even know those ores were there in the first place.

[ColonelKillaBee]

And likely never would had the Orcs not turned up looking for somewhere to stay without bothering the local populace.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

In some places strangeness is considered unique and people flock to them because they’re different. 

If they’re guilty of anything I’d say it’s ignorance of Nord culture.

Sure, strangeness is a huge draw in many places, but Windhelm isn’t one of those places and to me the Dunmer don’t seem ignorant to that fact. They’re just unwilling to change or go somewhere else in spite of it. I’m not saying they should, of course. But they’ve been deliberately peddling a product that nobody in the area wants for over a century. I don’t care what race you are, that is a recipe for failure.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, The Good Doctor said:

Sure, strangeness is a huge draw in many places, but Windhelm isn’t one of those places and to me the Dunmer don’t seem ignorant to that fact. They’re just unwilling to change or go somewhere else in spite of it. I’m not saying they should, of course. But they’ve been deliberately peddling a product that nobody in the area wants for over a century. I don’t care what race you are, that is a recipe for failure.

I don’t know how long the new gnisis corner club was there, I know they would know by now how Nords are but it seems more to me like they’re hopeful that they can change their minds and show them their establishment while different ain’t bad or that the Dunmer won’t bite their head off if they come inside. I don’t really blame them for wanting to retain some of their own culture and make a living off of it.

Not the best business practice in Windhelm no but I can understand their wanting to persuade the Nords to give their way a chance too.

[ColonelKillaBee]

And everyone wants alcohol, lol.

[The Good Doctor]

5 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

They typically don’t claim land unless it’s useful and no one really cared about the Orcs or the land they occupied from what I can tell until they found ores that could be mined. 

I think they do claim it. They just don’t do anything with it. We can talk about why this system is wrong from our modern standpoints (and I do think it is), but by the laws of Skyrim as we see them in the game, I think the Jarls are the owners.

For one, we know that poaching is a thing, albeit the law is poorly enforced. But still, it shows that resources are considered owned until purchased. And nobody cared about the Orcs before they struck ebony because squatting is not really a big deal, but stealing (as the Nords would see it) extremely valuable resources is.

[ColonelKillaBee]

I know that, like I said I know there’s legal precedent by Nord standards. 

By Nord standards, xenophobia is likely considered just good common sense. Distrusting strangers surely don’t hurt them and they have a lot of good reason to.

But I still say the “affront to my people” line is shitty. Despite my using modern and non Nord standards. I’ll admit to that fully.

[The Good Doctor]

30 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

but it seems more to me like they’re hopeful that they can change their minds and show them their establishment while different ain’t bad or that the Dunmer won’t bite their head off if they come inside.

One of the first things the owner says when you walk in is that the Nords don’t respect him and he doesn’t respect them either. And he is noted for his dislike of Nords in general. They are not even remotely trying to change anyone’s mind or build any bridges. They respond to xenophobia with even more of their own, and even straight up condemn their Hlaalu brother because he became successful by appealing to the Nords. 

New Gnisis is likely the most negative business for a Nord to visit in all of Skyrim. The Dunmer have one of my favorite cultures in TES, and even I wouldn’t want to go into that place. I’d be worried they’d spit in my drink.

30 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I don’t really blame them for wanting to retain some of their own culture and make a living off of it.

Neither do I. In fact, I would respect them for it if they weren’t such whiners. They are perfectly entitled to build a business and community around their culture, but they are not entitled to the support of people who have no interest in it. If they want support, they’ll either have to provide something the people there want, or they’ll have to go somewhere else where what they offer is desired. That’s just basic entrepreneurship. 

That’s why I say they built it for themselves, not the Nords. Which is fine, but not a great way to be successful in Windhelm. So instead of doing what it takes to succeed, they turn to blaming others and saying that Ulfric needs to “fix” the problems that they themselves are not doing anything to address.

[ColonelKillaBee]

8 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

One of the first things the owner says when you walk in is that the Nords don’t respect him and he doesn’t respect them either. And he is noted for his dislike of Nords in general. They are not even remotely trying to change anyone’s mind or build any bridges. They respond to xenophobia with even more of their own, and even straight up condemn their Hlaalu brother because he became successful by appealing to the Nords. 

New Gnisis is likely the most negative business for a Nord to visit in all of Skyrim. The Dunmer have one of my favorite cultures in TES, and even I wouldn’t want to go into that place. I’d be worried they’d spit in my drink.

Neither do I. In fact, I would respect them for it if they weren’t such whiners. They are perfectly entitled to build a business and community around their culture, but they are not entitled to the support of people who have no interest in it. If they want support, they’ll either have to provide something the people there want, or they’ll have to go somewhere else where what they offer is desired.

That’s why I say they built it for themselves, not the Nords. Which is fine, but not a great way to be successful. So instead of doing what it takes, they turn to blaming others and saying that Ulfric needs to “fix” the problems that they themselves are not attempting to address. 

Fair enough, I do remember hearing that. I also remember all the Imperial shit in the back actually. 

Though like I said before, it’s a bar. They do provide something the people want. Mead and ale.