Civil War Aftermath OOC #2

[ColonelKillaBee]

57 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

What do you consider OP? Because to me, Brund is OP and there are many characters in TES who are not player characters but are probably much more powerful than Brund. Some of the NPCs have feats that are downright insane. A bunch of nameless, faceless mages made an army of several thousand men fly in Lord of Souls.

And yet we all agree for instance, murdering an entire council, plus their family members in one go even if they did fall for such a thing shouldn't be so simple.

Not everything that works when written for in a story, works for a setting such as this, with so many people writing stories that can possibly overlap.

 

[ColonelKillaBee]

57 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

That's fine, just don't act like because I've come to a different conclusion, I've not considered all of it myself.

Never accused you of doing so, I've accused you of not considering it enough.

Because even in your examples, they were highly situational. And in the case of Brund, or Endar, were easier to write because they were losses by our own characters.

Highly doubt any such thing would be as smooth with Witchie, not when we had to go through so much just to get him to not have an absolute win in a situation where he shouldn't in his own plot.

[BigBossBalrog]

I think your just ignoring the entire situation and just looking at the fact he blew up some cats.

One: Martullus was physically exhausted after the display, and utterly drained of all his Magika reserves. If he was by himself, doing something like that on the battlefield, it would have been a death sentence, but he had his soldiers surrounding him, alongside his bodyguards. He needs to be protected, and he can't just do a spell like that whilly nilly

Two: He used the environment to exceptionally amplify the effect of the spell (the fact it was used on a tightly packed formation of mostly lightly armored Khajiit, they we're surrounded by wood, and seventy horsemen charged in right after to kill anyone who wasn't brought down by the blast.) 

 

[ColonelKillaBee]

Who is that directed to, because aside from the number, I agreed that the situation made what happened more acceptable in your post.

[BigBossBalrog]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Who is that directed to, because aside from the number, I agreed that the situation made what happened more acceptable in your post.

Celan.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Never accused you of doing so, I've accused you of not considering it enough.

Which is bullshit. You have no idea how much I’ve considered it. You just don’t like my stance on the matter.

2 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Because even in your examples, they were highly situational. And in the case of Brund, or Endar, were easier to write because they were losses by our own characters.

I’m fully prepared for my characters to lose to others’ if it’s reasonable, as you well know. And I don’t think most people here are so stubborn that they’d write themselves into losing situations and still be opposed to letting themselves lose. They’ll either avoid those scenarios, or be mature about it.

You’re using Witch and the Elder Council as an example, but last I checked he went back on that and retconned it. The problem there wasn’t even that there shouldn’t have been a win, it was that the situation itself turned out to be implausible and involved some character controlling.

[BTC]

Just for clarification, this is what Witch said before you mentioned the naked and bent over thing, Colonel.

4 hours ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

I'm pretty sure characters like Endar and Yornar would be able to kill hundreds of people if the situation (tightly packed and little protection) allowed for it.

4 hours ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

I think magicka and endurance would be less of an issue to the fact that most people you would be fighting would have some protection (mostly a shield) and fight back. I was just talking hypothetically if they were to burn people under "ideal" circumstances. 

So he was talking about an ideal scenario

Edited April 30, 2018 by BTCollins

[ColonelKillaBee]

56 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Which is bullshit. You have no idea how much I’ve considered it. You just don’t like my stance on the matter.

I’m fully prepared for my characters to lose to others’ if it’s reasonable, as you well know. And I don’t think most people here are so stubborn that they’d write themselves into losing situations and still be opposed to letting themselves lose. They’ll either avoid those scenarios, or be mature about it.

You’re using Witch and the Elder Council as an example, but last I checked he went back on that and retconned it. The problem there wasn’t even that there shouldn’t have been a win, it was that the situation itself turned out to be implausible and involved some character controlling.

"Which is bullshit."

Agree to disagree

As for the rest, we havent yet seen the result of the retconning. And it took a lot of arguing to get to that point. But if Witchie can indeed kill hundreds of people alone, and not having them be naked and bent over as he originally said, then there's really no reason he couldn't have pulled that off.

Us assuming that people wouldn't do this or that, is how that whole debacle started in the first place. Things like that would be less likely to happen if we as GMs both make it clear such OPness won't be allowed, AND if we're monitoring situations of consent.

[ColonelKillaBee]

59 minutes ago, BTCollins said:

Just for clarification, this is what Witch said before you mentioned the naked and bent over thing, Colonel.

So he was talking about an ideal scenario

Fair enough, but my naked and bent over remark was made because even packed together I dont think anyone should be able to kill as many as he claimed, unless they were literally naked and bent over lol.

[The Good Doctor]

7 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Agree to disagree

Whatever man.

7 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

But if Witchie can indeed kill hundreds of people alone, and not having them be naked and bent over as he originally said, then there's really no reason he couldn't have pulled that off.

Yes there is, because the council situation is not the same as an “ideal scenario” as you already explained. They would have had enchantments and spells, body doubles, and all sorts of things keeping the scenario from being ideal.

7 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Us assuming that people wouldn't do this or that, is how that whole debacle started in the first place. Things like that would be less likely to happen if we as GMs both make it clear such OPness won't be allowed, AND if we're monitoring situations of consent.

It was the only time something like this has been a real issue, so I’m not convinced that things like that are very likely to happen regardless. And if they do, the group will take care of them just like we did that time. The big complaint in that event wasn’t even one of OPness, it was how unlikely the situation was and the debate over what the consequences should be. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 hour ago, The Good Doctor said:

The problem there wasn’t even that there shouldn’t have been a win, it was that the situation itself turned out to be implausible and involved some character controlling.

Speak for yourself lol to me the implausibility was the reason why the scenario as it was written shouldn't have been a win. Or at the very least not that easy.

[ColonelKillaBee]

57 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Whatever man.

Yes there is, because the council situation is not the same as an “ideal scenario” as you already explained. They would have had enchantments and spells, body doubles, and all sorts of things keeping the scenario from being ideal.

It was the only time something like this has been a real issue, so I’m not convinced that things like that are very likely to happen regardless. And if they do, the group will take care of them just like we did that time. The big complaint in that event wasn’t even one of OPness, it was how unlikely the situation was and the debate over what the consequences should be. 

And yet even with all of that, none of it was taken into consideration. Why, probably because the end result was supposed to be the same, which is the problem. The devil is in the details. That's what all of this conversation today started over in the first place. The details.

I kept saying before that something like the council situation would happen specifically because of this hands off attitude we keep taking, and I'm gonna say it again for the record.

And a part of that was indeed the opness. The using multiple powerful spells and summons, etc etc.

[BigBossBalrog]

I'm with Doc on this one. One situation emerged, which the group dealt with very civilly, and without any problems.  The thing you keep mentioning Colonel has been fixed, and it was worked out by Witch,, Bt, and Celan, not any of us three (I was in the PM but very hands off) we don't need GM supervision for something like this. We've been fine for more then four years.

Character controlling, and GM's being...too hands on has caused a few RP groups I know to fracture. We don't need to control other peoples character, and enforcing some bullshit power rule is something I really don't agree with. I trust everyone to "not jump the shark" so to speak.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Look, I'm not suggesting everything needs to be micromanaged, but at the very least people need to start considering how they're presenting powerful magic and abilities. It can very easily feel like a character is impossible to kill when casualty figures are being carelessly thrown out, when general statements of power are being thrown out, or when people string together powerful spell after powerful spell like its nothing.

[ColonelKillaBee]

And it was one situation, that was argued on for days and has yet to actually be fixed. 

It was a situation I warned about, and can easily crop up again unless we at least agree people need to be more careful instead of being so damn defensive

[The Good Doctor]

Just now, ColonelKillaBee said:

Speak for yourself lol to me the implausibility was the reason why the scenario as it was written shouldn't have been a win. Or at the very least not that easy.

Yeah, and the implausibility didn’t stem from Witch and his ice wraiths being too weak to kill lots of people. It stemmed from the fact that there was no way the councilors would have all gone in there and just let it happen like it did. The problem wasn’t his character. It was the situation.

Even back when it first happened, your main complaints with the post were about this. That you thought it was unrealistic for the Chancellors to be there, a bad move on Yornar’s part, and that it should have consequences. Most people agreed on this.

[ColonelKillaBee]

56 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Yeah, and the implausibility didn’t stem from Witch and his ice wraiths being too weak to kill lots of people. It stemmed from the fact that there was no way the councilors would have all gone in there and just let it happen like it did. The problem wasn’t his character. It was the situation.

Even back when it first happened, your main complaints with the post were about this. That you thought it was unrealistic for the Chancellors to be there, a bad move on Yornar’s part, and that it should have consequences. Most people agreed on this.

No those were the points most people focused on. That that many ice wraiths could be controlled while using powerful illusion magics at the same time was something only me and Celan commented on. I brought it up, yall either didn't agree and skipped over it or agreed and decided not to add to it, or just didn't see it, I dunno, but the opness was a topic I brought up. 

I said specifically that it seemed like there wasn't anything he couldn't do with magic.

[The Good Doctor]

2 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

And it was one situation, that was argued on for days and has yet to actually be fixed. 

The fix is coming in the form of multiple posts that have already started, like Celan depicting the Nibenese in her last post. It’s not there anymore, so I don’t know what more you want from a fix.

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

It was a situation I warned about, and can easily crop up again unless we at least agree people need to be more careful instead of being so damn defensive

Disagreeing with you isn’t being defensive.

[ColonelKillaBee]

59 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

The fix is coming in the form of multiple posts that have already started, like Celan depicting the Nibenese in her last post. It’s not there anymore, so I don’t know what more you want from a fix.

Disagreeing with you isn’t being defensive.

Starting long debates defending such ridiculousness is.

"The fix is coming in the form of multiple posts that have already started, like Celan depicting the Nibenese in her last post. It’s not there anymore, so I don’t know what more you want from a fix."

I cant comment more without saying anything I shouldn't, so I'm just gonna have to say lets wait and see. 

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

No those were the points most people focused on. That that many ice wraiths could be controlled while using powerful illusion magics at the same time was something only me and Celan commented on. I brought it up, yall either didn't agree and skipped over it or agreed and decided not to add to it, or just didn't see it, I dunno, but the opness was a topic I brought up. 

 I said specifically that it seemed like there wasn't anything he couldn't do with magic.

You definitely didn’t raise a fuss, and even complimented the scene itself even though you said there seemed like there was nothing he couldn’t do. So maybe that’s why no one jumped in on the matter.

The actual debate that you and everyone else took part in, which actually resulted in the change, was about the situation overall. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

57 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

You definitely didn’t raise a fuss, and even complimented the scene itself even though you said there seemed like there was nothing he couldn’t do. So maybe that’s why no one jumped in on the matter.

The actual debate that you and everyone else took part in, which actually resulted in the change, was about the situation overall. 

I didn't "raise a fuss" because it seemed like yall agreed with my point about the magic and I had no more reason to bring it up.

And yes I did compliment the scene since doing so while giving criticism tends to make what you're criticizing be more easily digested. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

Anyway, I really do have a headache so I guess I'll just get ready for the next bout next time the issue inevitably comes up again. 

[The Good Doctor]

Fine by me.

[BTC]

I do think there's an important point to be made about not only having realistic limits on power but also clearly displaying those in the in-character posts. Not something like "Baldur can only shout 3 times in so many minutes" but things like showing him being tired after shouting a couple times quickly, or whatever. But TES is a high magic fantasy universe, so there are going to be powerful figures. People just need to make sure that within the rules of the universe and without being too extreme the characters are realistic

But I think the Elder Council post is, in my opinion, a good example of us working something out. It's not all said and done, but we've been doing this for so long at this point I have a lot of faith in everyone to be able to talk and work things out. None of us that are here are so stubborn that we can't have discussions about problems. Would it be preferable if a situation with disagreements never came up? Sure, but I don't think it's realistic to expect that over 4 years. The posts are still being worked on, but based on the discussions we've had so far I don't see cause for worry.

[ColonelKillaBee]

I will add, and of course be free to respond how yall will, that the main reason we havent had much issue over the years is because we've all been doing our own thing for years.

When the fourth chapter comes, that may not be the case any longer. Sure, I know that we have a mature group here, especially in comparison to other rp groups, but there's something to be said for at least somewhat controlling things to make it easier for us in the future. We all agree this is mainly important for the regular characters but I think it's equally as important at least somewhat of a discussion for the others is had as well going into something like this.