Civil War Aftermath OOC #2

[BigBossBalrog]

2 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Hey if you can’t take the heat...

Lol

Yeah okay coldsteel

[The Good Doctor]

2 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Hey if you can’t take the heat...

Lol

 

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, Witchking of Angmar said:

He's never really faced tongues. At most he's had to shield himself when accidentally pissing off a dragon. But I think he would be familiar with how the Thu'um works that he would be able to adapt to it as with fighting any other mage. 

I don’t really get that, if he hasn’t faced tongues and had much experience fighting them, hows he got enough to suddenly adjust his spells without first combatting them and gauging their power?

 it makes perfect sense that he could for instance underestimate its power and have his wards broken potentially.

Corio got lucky and just assumed his magic was superior to Nord magic. I could easily see in a hypothetical Yornar doing the same thing and not putting Baldur’s thu’um on par with anything he’s faced before. Yornar is rather arrogant, especially when comparing his ability to those of modern races.

[The Good Doctor]

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I don’t really get that, if he hasn’t faced tongues and had much experience fighting them, hows he got enough to suddenly adjust his spells without first combatting them and gauging their power?

 it makes perfect sense that he could for instance underestimate its power and have his wards broken potentially.

Corio got lucky and just assumed his magic was superior to Nord magic. I could easily see in a hypothetical Yornar doing the same thing and not putting Baldur’s thu’um on par with anything he’s faced before. Yornar is rather arrogant, especially when comparing his ability to those of modern races.

To be fair, if the two ever come to blows it’ll probably be long enough in the future that Yornar would have heard of Baldur’s reputation. The Nords might not actually know how powerful his thu’um is, but I don’t think that will stop them from hyping it up like he’s got the voice of a dragon. 

I could see Yornar bracing for him accordingly.

[Witchking of Angmar]

4 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I don’t really get that, if he hasn’t faced tongues and had much experience fighting them, hows he got enough to suddenly adjust his spells without first combatting them and gauging their power?

 it makes perfect sense that he could for instance underestimate its power and have his wards broken potentially.

Corio got lucky and just assumed his magic was superior to Nord magic. I could easily see in a hypothetical Yornar doing the same thing and not putting Baldur’s thu’um on par with anything he’s faced before. Yornar is rather arrogant, especially when comparing his ability to those of modern races.

How much different is that from fighting a mage you’ve never met or heard anything about? 

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 minute ago, The Good Doctor said:

To be fair, if the two ever come to blows it’ll probably be long enough in the future that Yornar would have heard of Baldur’s reputation. The Nords might not actually know how powerful his thu’um is, but I don’t think that will stop them from hyping it up like he’s got the voice of a dragon. 

I could see Yornar bracing for him accordingly.

If he’s not so arrogant that he assumes it’s just rumors and stories over exagerating the truth.

Anyway all I’m saying is, power levels are bullshit and stranger things have happened, so he shouldn’t make such assumptions.

All I got to say.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, Witchking of Angmar said:

How much different is that from fighting a mage you’ve never met or heard anything about? 

Vastly, when the thu’um ain’t like ordinary magic.

[Celan]

I think we're setting up for it being difficult to co-write because of different standards on what's realistic. And IMO limiting OP'ness makes for more interesting storytelling. Characters don't get insta-wins, they have to work at it and sometimes fail. That's where I'd say Doc's post still did a good job because there was buildup and the outcome wasn't a total win.

@BigBossBalrog I did like how you framed the post with the perspective of the little girl, to humanize (Khajiit-ize) what came after. Question, what did her uncle mean that he knew something would happen to her by sending her out alone? Also, what did you mean about imperials not being Romans?

@TheCzarsHussar I did read yours also, but have to admit it was a bit of a hard go. IMO world building works best when it's woven into character stories. It gives your reader a reason to care about the customs, geography etc. which otherwise is pretty dry stuff. For instance, I didn't give a rip about High Rock prior to BT writng about it, but got drawn in because I felt invested in characters like Theodore and Lady Gaerhart.

Ok I think I'm done kvetching.

[BigBossBalrog]

Just now, Celan said:

@BigBossBalrog I did like how you framed the post with the perspective of the little girl, to humanize (Khajiit-ize) what came after. Question, what did her uncle mean that he knew something would happen to her by sending her out alone? Also, what did you mean about imperials not being Romans?

@TheCzarsHussarOk I think I'm done kvetching.

Just talking about how, whilst the Imperials take heavy inspiration from Roman culture and the Legion, it should have it's own distinctive one. Which i've been somewhat diluting by adding aspects about it from the Late Roman Empire.

 

"She grew confused, as she could only nod in response, "Run along now." The old Pahmar-raht sighed, as he turned around. Forgive me, little moonling. I do this for the glory of  Summerest and Elswry. The Dragon shall choke on this meal..." 

Her uncle knew the attack was coming, and what would happen to them, if you couldn't tell. He didn't tell his sister or niece to run for it. The post is a multiparter, and that will be explain in the second part.

[TheCzarsHussar]

5 minutes ago, Celan said:

@TheCzarsHussar I did read yours also, but have to admit it was a bit of a hard go. IMO world building works best when it's woven into character stories. It gives your reader a reason to care about the customs, geography etc. which otherwise is pretty dry stuff. For instance, I didn't give a rip about High Rock prior to BT writng about it, but got drawn in because I felt invested in characters like Theodore and Lady Gaerhart.

Thanks for the criticisms Celan!

Unfortunately I'm in the position where there isn't anything major going on yet or beloved characters, I do have Berahthram but he's not liked and the plans I have for story lines involving Tamriel won't be happening until chapter 4. This post with BT was the only chance I have for a long time to describe things, plus I needed to get Oges and Co. into Nebbezzar before chapter 4.

Me and Doc have some serious plans that had to be put on hold until chapter 4.

[The Good Doctor]

20 minutes ago, Celan said:

And IMO limiting OP'ness makes for more interesting storytelling. 

I generally agree with this, but at the same time there is a measure of OPness in this world that ought to be depicted. 

There are ways to make powerful characters interesting without just nerfing them, like with character flaws that have nothing to do with their power but can be every bit as crippling as a nerf. In my opinion that is the more interesting way to handle OP characters in a world like TES.

I think it becomes a lot more fun to write when the focus is on telling a story instead of balancing everyone. Any fantasy story will have its figures whose power stands out, and they can be as interesting as anyone if they’re handled well and not overused.

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 hour ago, The Good Doctor said:

I generally agree with this, but at the same time there is a measure of OPness in this world that ought to be depicted. 

There are ways to make powerful characters interesting without just nerfing them, like with character flaws that have nothing to do with their power but can be every bit as crippling as a nerf. In my opinion that is the more interesting way to handle OP characters in a world like TES.

 

I agree with most of what you said, except this. It always came off as an excuse to me. "He's impossible to kill unless you have titties because he fucks everything that moves." That's hardly a weakness, lol. 

This, along with some actual weaknesses is good though. But it should never imo be the only realistic way someone can be taken out.

edit: All that does for me is make me disinterested in ever including any of my characters in a plot with characters that are like that.

[The Good Doctor]

28 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I agree with most of what you said, except this. It always came off as an excuse to me. "He's impossible to kill unless you have titties because he fucks everything that moves." That's hardly a weakness, lol. 

It's a weakness outside of combat, which I feel like is the overrated sort anyhow. But regardless, character flaws that have nothing to do with power can still count as weaknesses in combat. Sure, the one you named makes for a pretty shitty weakness in a fight, but things like arrogance, blinding anger or hatred, a weak will, personal fears and insecurities, etc. could all be exploited to make for a much more interesting victory over a foe than "my fire spell/ward > your ward/fire spell" or "I'm a better fighter than you".

If someone makes an OP character who has no flaws like this, then yeah, they usually ain't a very interesting character, at least to me. But someone can be god-like and remain interesting if they're actually written well.

28 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

 This, along with some actual weaknesses is good though. But it should never imo be the only realistic way someone can be taken out.

This is just my opinion and I don't expect you to agree with it, but I personally don't care how easily someone can be taken out. That's what I meant by focusing more on the story than trying to balance people. There should be characters who are much harder to take out than others, and a good story usually isn't fair with regards to who that is.

Anyway, when I think of weaknesses, weakness in battle is only one type. An OP character can have a multitude of problems and personal demons that make them interesting despite the fact that they're powerful.

[ColonelKillaBee]

The problem with what you're saying is, this isn't a novel, this isn't a book, it's an RP, and as has been shown in the past, if we ignore this sort of thing issues are going to keep cropping up because of it. So yea people may not want to talk shop about weaknesses and such, and maybe it gets in the way of some of yall's enjoyment, but hey, that's the nature of the beast, sorry.

I really don't agree with the sentiment, no. I agree that character flaws certainly should be a thing, but that shouldn't be your fall to when justifying characters that are virtually undefeatable. Not in an rp setting.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Like I said, its got nothing to do with fairness. It's more in keeping things under at least some control. As I've said before in the past, and recently with the Council stuff because imo it is all related since the end result is, people dont want to take an L.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Like I said, its got nothing to do with fairness. It's more in keeping things under at least some control. As I've said before in the past, and recently with the Council stuff because imo it is all related since the end result is, people dont want to take an L.

Then they shouldn't write their characters into situations where they obviously should take the L. I'm not going to ask Baldur to lose his thu'um, skills, and muscles so I can make Mila have a fair fight with him. I'm not going to send Boldir charging at Yornar with nothing but an axe and a shield unless I've decided it's time for him to die.

To me it seems like it's completely about fairness. Things can be under control while powerful characters still exist. The only time it becomes a problem is when their power goes up against someone who can't stand the idea of losing to them, which hasn't happened in this RP since like chapter 1. I don't get why we should operate in a certain "power level" bracket that is far below what other mortals in TES have been shown to operate in. It only makes sense that a few of the very powerful individuals would get involved in a conflict that affects the whole continent. 

[The Good Doctor]

And I never said it was a novel or a book. But we're still writing a story, and just because it's in an RP format doesn't mean we have to make everything perfectly balanced like some video game. There will still be outlier characters, villains, and the like who ought to present more challenge than others.

And so far none of them are "virtually undefeatable". At worst, they might require more creativity to beat than brute force in a fight, which imo isn't a bad thing. Especially not when we have a group of creative people doing the writing.

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 hour ago, The Good Doctor said:

Then they shouldn't write their characters into situations where they obviously should take the L. I'm not going to ask Baldur to lose his thu'um, skills, and muscles so I can make Mila have a fair fight with him. I'm not going to send Boldir charging at Yornar with nothing but an axe and a shield unless I've decided it's time for him to die.

To me it seems like it's completely about fairness. Things can be under control while powerful characters still exist. The only time it becomes a problem is when their power goes up against someone who can't stand the idea of losing to them, which hasn't happened in this RP since like chapter 1. I don't get why we should operate in a certain "power level" bracket that is far below what other mortals in TES have been shown to operate in. It only makes sense that a few of the very powerful individuals would get involved in a conflict that affects the whole continent. 

Ok but the difference is, there's more instances where you could write certain characters having losses, whereas the more OP characters, that's not the case.

And all of this absolutely should be considered, or for instance, there'd be no reason Yornar couldn't initially kill an entire room of Council members despite them having their own spells, their own enchantments, etc etc, not to mention there's a huge number of them.

But if we go by Witch's estimate, that he can kill hundreds of people alone, then there's absolutely no reason why that plan shouldnt work.

And so, the options, whether someone "loses their muscles," and yadya becomes still rather slim.

It aint about fairness, it's about control, or we're gonna have a very chaotic fourth chapter.

[ColonelKillaBee]

57 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

And I never said it was a novel or a book. But we're still writing a story, and just because it's in an RP format doesn't mean we have to make everything perfectly balanced like some video game. There will still be outlier characters, villains, and the like who ought to present more challenge than others.

And so far none of them are "virtually undefeatable". At worst, they might require more creativity to beat than brute force in a fight, which imo isn't a bad thing. Especially not when we have a group of creative people doing the writing.

Ive said it till I'm blue in the face it aint about check and balancing everything like a game or else I'd have documented how many times Baldur can shout.

But as GMs, we cant pretend like this isn't an issue. I also disagree none of them are virtually undefeatable considering how Witch has been talking about his character. Even with him losing to Lilly in a spar, that's him not using magic. He's however always using magic.

RP format absolutely means things like this must be considered to simply avoid scenarios where a character puts himself in a position where he should lose, but has no reason to because we haven't set up any limitations or at least checked them when they win in a situation so easily when they really shouldn't.

That's why every time someone makes sweeping generalizations about power, or someone being so outclassed they could never win in a given situation, I'm gonna say something every time. That's our jobs as GMs

[ColonelKillaBee]

And I have a headache so that's all I'm gonna say on the matter. Yall know where I stand, and if you don't, let that be for the record next time there is an issue. 

[Celan]

1 hour ago, The Good Doctor said:

I generally agree with this, but at the same time there is a measure of OPness in this world that ought to be depicted. 

There are ways to make powerful characters interesting without just nerfing them, like with character flaws that have nothing to do with their power but can be every bit as crippling as a nerf. In my opinion that is the more interesting way to handle OP characters in a world like TES.

I think it becomes a lot more fun to write when the focus is on telling a story instead of balancing everyone. Any fantasy story will have its figures whose power stands out, and they can be as interesting as anyone if they’re handled well and not overused.

Very few figures in Elder Scrolls are OP, besides our characters who are basically gods. Isn't there even a quest in Morrowind to kill all the Telvanni leadership?

I'm more talking about characters who are normals like Martullus ending up being super powerful. There's no reason for him to be.

[The Good Doctor]

2 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Ok but the difference is, there's more instances where you could write certain characters having losses, whereas the more OP characters, that's not the case.

Endar is an OP character. He had a loss. Brund and Lorgar are an OP characters and they have had multiple.

Witchie isn't undefeatable either. Just because Baldur most likely can't run at him with an axe and win doesn't mean he can't beat him in other ways, like cleverness of the sort we saw in Hammerfell or his handling of Samuel. I doubt Witch is strong enough to take on an army of Grim Ones, or survive a trap that is designed to bring him down. Hell, if Maggie or Lilly wanted him dead, he'd have died a hundred times by now. 

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

 And all of this absolutely should be considered, or for instance, there'd be no reason Yornar couldn't initially kill an entire room of Council members despite them having their own spells, their own enchantments, etc etc, not to mention there's a huge number of them.

 But if we go by Witch's estimate, that he can kill hundreds of people alone, then there's absolutely no reason why that plan shouldnt work.

Except Witch's estimate was specifically in the most ideal scenario. Basically if a bunch of undefended, unprotected naked people were standing in massive clusters asking to be blown up by a spell. That was not the case with the Elder Council members, and even in that event, I recall you being okay with what he did, so long as there were severe consequences.

8 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

RP format absolutely means things like this must be considered to simply avoid scenarios where a character puts himself in a position where he should lose, but has no reason to because we haven't set up any limitations or at least checked them when they win in a situation so easily when they really shouldn't.

That's why every time someone makes sweeping generalizations about power, or someone being so outclassed they could never win in a given situation, I'm gonna say something every time. That's our jobs as GMs

As a GM, I'd say it's my job to stop people from putting their characters into those positions without say-so from the affected members. Witch could send Yornar after any of our characters at any given time, and my problem wouldn't be that Yornar is capable of killing our characters in that scenario, it'd be that he created the scenario to begin with. There needs to be a level of consent between members when it comes to characters interacting, and I think the role of the GM should be to moderate that.

[ColonelKillaBee]

57 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Endar is an OP character. He had a loss. Brund and Lorgar are an OP characters and they have had multiple.

Witchie isn't undefeatable either. Just because Baldur most likely can't run at him with an axe and win doesn't mean he can't beat him in other ways, like cleverness of the sort we saw in Hammerfell or his handling of Samuel. I doubt Witch is strong enough to take on an army of Grim Ones, or survive a trap that is designed to bring him down. Hell, if Maggie or Lilly wanted him dead, he'd have died a hundred times by now. 

Except Witch's estimate was specifically in the most ideal scenario. Basically if a bunch of undefended, unprotected naked people were standing in massive clusters asking to be blown up by a spell. That was not the case with the Elder Council members, and even in that event, I recall you being okay with what he did, so long as there were severe consequences.

As a GM, I'd say it's my job to stop people from putting their characters into those positions without say-so from the affected members. Witch could send Yornar after any of our characters at any given time, and my problem wouldn't be that Yornar is capable of killing our characters in that scenario, it'd be that he created the scenario to begin with. There needs to be a level of consent between members when it comes to characters interacting, and I think the role of the GM should be to moderate that.

"Except Witch's estimate was specifically in the most ideal scenario."

No, thats what it was after I clarified it would be if they were naked and bent over.

Like I said I said my piece. GMs need to consider all of it, and I will continue to.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, Celan said:

Very few figures in Elder Scrolls are OP, besides our characters who are basically gods. Isn't there even a quest in Morrowind to kill all the Telvanni leadership?

What do you consider OP? Because to me, Brund is OP and there are many characters in TES who are not player characters but are probably much more powerful than Brund. Some of the NPCs have feats that are downright insane. A bunch of nameless, faceless mages made an army of several thousand men fly in Lord of Souls.

2 minutes ago, Celan said:

 I'm more talking about characters who are normals like Martullus ending up being super powerful. There's no reason for him to be.

That's fair. I don't disagree.

[The Good Doctor]

Just now, ColonelKillaBee said:

Like I said I said my piece. GMs need to consider all of it, and I will continue to.

That's fine, just don't act like because I've come to a different conclusion, I've not considered all of it myself.