Civil War Aftermath OOC #2

[Celan]

Well that was unexpected.

 

I don't think it's especially realistic that you'd even get the whole Council and their families in one room, and not on summons from an emperor not all of them care for. I imagine most of the families live in the places they hail from, all around Cyrodiil. You mention something in the post about him working on it for months- working on it how? Weren't you on me about showing and not telling, over a pretty minor detail?

Strategy wise, Krojun just blew whatever political good will he had built up. Which in truth was minimal and tentative as far as anything I've ever seen or written. Maggie will be very disappointed.

I would also have appreciated a heads up about Doron, since it's my character, though minor and turned over in my absence. I think it's at least courtesy to mention you're using someone's character, let alone in such a major plot development and then killing them off.

[BigBossBalrog]

If it was a political mistake then it was Krojun's political mistake to make

Dales is coming home with a fire Drake and she'll probably be super pissed at the mess he's made, and that he intends to place his own sycophants in power.

[TheCzarsHussar]

Good grief the Empire really is run by psychopaths.

Buuut I loved that post, the buildup was absolutely worth it even if I still have the same opinion of that bath scene. This makes me want to reread the last post.

Krojun soul trapping the people he personally didn't like was some petty shit, but I think it's one hundred percent fitting for his character. Speaking of characters I was thinking to myself during the post that Krojun really is the most sane person in the actual ruling class at the moment, before getting to the part he literally ate some souls out of pettiness  

[ColonelKillaBee]

I mentioned that myself, that it seemed unlikely you’d get all the council members in a single room. Me personally, I’d be very suspicious of such a request, especially if family members were expected to come as well. I’d have sent a double in my place personally since we know at least that’s a tact Mede used, it’s possible a councilor could too.

But at least someone mentioned that it was odd Dales wasn’t with him or his spymaster lover.

Anyway I will say when I was presented with this I was expecting a big story arc for something this big, but I suppose this is more in line with Witchie’s style. And, the wraiths flooding in to kill then all was a pretty picturesque scene lol. 

Also, Balrog, Witch, at this point it’s kinda obvious to everyone reading that there’s not much intent on Lilly’s side to bang, though in the situations presented I’d say it was justified for Lilly but perhaps things between them wouldn’t feel so awkward if y’all fade to black or something. Since I assumed when reading it there was some reluctance and I guessed that was the reason.

Anyway, I agree with Collins on their insight on what they were about to do, and knowing neither of them took a liking to killing children. 

That and the ice wraith frenzy was pretty creative and cool though it seems at this point like magically there’s nothing he can’t do. His kit is very versatile, almost too versatile.

[TheCzarsHussar]

Also I was suspecting that he'd kill off the council so I wasn't all too shocked to see it go down, while I'd say that's a super risky move that'd make Sulla raise his Roman eyebrows. I think it was a mistake personally but that's OOC.

[ColonelKillaBee]

As for the rest well, mistake or not I bet things in Cyrodiil will get quite interesting lol

[BigBossBalrog]

5 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

 

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I mentioned that myself, that it seemed unlikely you’d get all the council members in a single room. Me personally, I’d be very suspicious of such a request, especially if family members were expected to come as well. I’d have sent a double in my place personally since we know at least that’s a tact Mede used, it’s possible a councilor could too.

But at least someone mentioned that it was odd Dales wasn’t with him or his spymaster lover.

Anyway I will say when I was presented with this I was expecting a big story arc for something this big, but I suppose this is more in line with Witchie’s style. And, the wraiths flooding in to kill then all was a pretty picturesque scene lol. 

Also, Balrog, Witch, at this point it’s kinda obvious to everyone reading that there’s not much intent on Lilly’s side to bang, though in the situations presented I’d say it was justified for Lilly but perhaps things between them wouldn’t feel so awkward if y’all fade to black or something. Since I assumed when reading it there was some reluctance and I guessed that was the reason.

Anyway, I agree with Collins on their insight on what they were about to do, and knowing neither of them took a liking to killing children. 

That and the ice wraith frenzy was pretty creative and cool though it seems at this point like magically there’s nothing he can’t do. His kit is very versatile, almost too versatile.

 

 

Lilly's is a pretty sinister character, but if you read the little Coven series of posts, you'll know she isn't nearly to the level of the rest of her sisters. (Becoming horrified about what happened to the servant girl, horrified by what her sister was going to do etc) And I never wrote her to be submissive. LOL, she does it when she wants too. She's controlling, and likes to the one in charge. 

Not to mention, she's just not in the mood for sex. She has a conscious (albeit a twisted one), and it weighs heavily on her what she ordered her soldiers to do.  Could you get turned on.

And I didn't mind the Ice Wraith thing. He was shown to be in control of icy monsters since the first chapter (we're he summoned an icy werewolf to fuck Lorgar's shit up)

14 minutes ago, TheCzarsHussar said:

Good grief the Empire really is run by psychopaths.

 

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Buuut I loved that post, the buildup was absolutely worth it even if I still have the same opinion of that bath scene. This makes me want to reread the last post.

Krojun soul trapping the people he personally didn't like was some petty shit, but I think it's one hundred percent fitting for his character. Speaking of characters I was thinking to myself during the post that Krojun really is the most sane person in the actual ruling class at the moment, before getting to the part he literally ate some souls out of pettiness  

 

I think your overdoing Dales...struggle with mental health. When Dales was put in the same situation as Witch and Lilly, with innocent woman and children, she choose to spare them.

[Celan]

17 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said:

 

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If it was a political mistake then it was Krojun's political mistake to make

Dales is coming home with a fire Drake and she'll probably be super pissed at the mess he's made, and that he intends to place his own sycophants in power.

Though still with implications for two of your characters.

10 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

 

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I mentioned that myself, that it seemed unlikely you’d get all the council members in a single room. Me personally, I’d be very suspicious of such a request, especially if family members were expected to come as well. I’d have sent a double in my place personally since we know at least that’s a tact Mede used, it’s possible a councilor could too.

But at least someone mentioned that it was odd Dales wasn’t with him or his spymaster lover.

Anyway I will say when I was presented with this I was expecting a big story arc for something this big, but I suppose this is more in line with Witchie’s style. And, the wraiths flooding in to kill then all was a pretty picturesque scene lol. 

Also, Balrog, Witch, at this point it’s kinda obvious to everyone reading that there’s not much intent on Lilly’s side to bang, though in the situations presented I’d say it was justified for Lilly but perhaps things between them wouldn’t feel so awkward if y’all fade to black or something. Since I assumed when reading it there was some reluctance and I guessed that was the reason.

Anyway, I agree with Collins on their insight on what they were about to do, and knowing neither of them took a liking to killing children. 

That and the ice wraith frenzy was pretty creative and cool though it seems at this point like magically there’s nothing he can’t do. His kit is very versatile, almost too versatile.

 

 

I have to agree this time, about the magic. Running multiple very powerful illusions at the same time you're running very powerful numerous summons is a bit much. I think it would have been better if there were just a couple ice wraiths as distraction and most of the killing was done by the goon squad.

About the councilors, even if they weren't suspicious, I would expect some of them to blow it off.

[TheCzarsHussar]

1 minute ago, BigBossBalrog said:

 

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I think your overdoing Dales...struggle with mental health. When Dales was put in the same situation as Witch and Lilly, with innocent woman and children, she choose to spare them.

 

Nope I'd still say Dales is a psycho, doesn't mean she has to kill children to be one.

[BigBossBalrog]

1 minute ago, TheCzarsHussar said:

 

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Nope I'd still say Dales is a psycho, doesn't mean she has to kill children to be one.

 

Dales shows none of the symptoms to be diagnosed as a clinical psychopath.

"persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy, impaired remorse, bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits." 

Dales has quite a few number of friends, she is very empathetic to other people, she feels remorse all the time, and is filled with such self loathing she's nowhere near the level to be called an egotist. So LOL, no she isn't a psycho.

[TheCzarsHussar]

Just now, BigBossBalrog said:

Dales shows none of the symptoms to be diagnosed as a clinical psychopath.

"persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy, impaired remorse, bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits." 

Dales has quite a few number of friends, she is very empathetic to other people, she feels remorse all the time, and is filled with such self loathing she's nowhere near the level to be called an egotist. So LOL, no she isn't a psycho.

Ugh, let me rephrase then.

They're fucking weirdos.

[BigBossBalrog]

Just now, TheCzarsHussar said:

Ugh, let me rephrase then.

They're fucking weirdos.

Cause she's gay? So your homophobic and racist  

Joking aside, meh. Everyone has quirks. Dales is known for hers. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think you can lump her together with Krogun (Who I dont think is quite a pyscopath or Sociopath either. He's a fucking prick sure, but he's shown remorse for his actions, which a true sociopath can't do.) 

[Centurion]

3 minutes ago, TheCzarsHussar said:

Ugh, let me rephrase then.

They're fucking weirdos.

[The Good Doctor]

58 minutes ago, Celan said:

Which in truth was minimal and tentative as far as anything I've ever seen or written.

 

I don’t entirely agree with this. Maybe it’s just a failing of depiction, but Krojun’s track record is honestly pretty great when you think about it. An outsider would see him as the guy that helped or maybe even influenced Dales in throwing out the Thalmor. He ended some incredibly violent situations in Bravil and Leyawiin, put down a minor rebellion in one of the Legions, and has a good friend in the leadership of Skingrad (albeit how that stands after this move remains to be seen) and some degree of influence in Chorrol through Lilly. Among other things. That is not bad at all for just a couple years.

I could see a very strong divide in opinion of him, with a lot of people loving such a strong leader after the recent string of weaklings, and others fearing him as a possible tyrant or even Jagar Tharn-like figure. 

Anyway, I agree with the criticism that getting everyone into the room is a little unlikely. There would’ve no doubt been body doubles or family representatives, but you could probably solve that in a future post by having them assassinated or something. I mean, at this point the whole thing is gonna be out in the open anyway. Witch and Dales are gonna have to do some serious PR now. The assassination attempt needs to be played up so that everyone in Cyrodiil knows that this was an execution of traitors, not a power grab.

The ice wraith imagery was cool. It could’ve been actual ice wraiths instead of summons, though. That would make the power level of what he did less insane.

I don’t think this Lilly x Witchie stuff is good for either of them.  But given Witch’s thoughts in this post, I think that’s the point.

Last thought. I liked that you didn’t try to make this a big shocking moment when it finally happened. I love a good Red Wedding, but seeing Witch’s thoughts as the preparations were made and things feel into place felt really fitting for him.

[Celan]

Krojun was still an outsider, unknown and a Nord.

Any chance of using the assassination as pretext is very thin. The empire has laws, and among them I would guess that the children of criminals don't get summarily executed without a trial. It's pretty obvious that it was a mass political assassination.

[BigBossBalrog]

16 minutes ago, Celan said:

 

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Krojun was still an outsider, unknown and a Nord.

Any chance of using the assassination as pretext is very thin. The empire has laws, and among them I would guess that the children of criminals don't get summarily executed without a trial. It's pretty obvious that it was a mass political assassination.

 

 

As Doctor stated, Krojun's various military accomplishments should have already brought him a level of respect among the populace, especially in the places he helped cleanup and liberated. 

 

[Celan]

I guess we can dispense with spoiler tags since we all read it...

I believe I covered the fact that people appreciated the incursions being put down. Doron said that in my Maggie post. And now a leader of the Nibeneans has been assassinated along with his family without any pretext for it. So like I said, any goodwill that had been built up is pretty much wiped out.

[The Good Doctor]

32 minutes ago, Celan said:

 

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Krojun was still an outsider, unknown and a Nord.

Any chance of using the assassination as pretext is very thin. The empire has laws, and among them I would guess that the children of criminals don't get summarily executed without a trial. It's pretty obvious that it was a mass political assassination.

 

 

So was Tiber Septim, and so have been other emperors, even a Dunmer at one point. Not to say that Krojun is on the same level as the most famous guy to ever live, but Cyrodiil has a history of eventually falling behind leaders who impress them. And an outsider who fights the Dominion is gonna be a lot more desirable to many than natives who bend over for them.

It was a mass political assassination, but 99% of Cyrodiil won’t have any knowledge or context for it. The next step, imo, should be to paint a picture that the Elder Council as a complete entity was working to betray Krojun, citing the attempts on his life (and maybe the attempt on Gracchus, someone whose rose coincided with his own) as proof. And more could be made up if necessary.

Considering that most of the population doesn’t likely know more than two Elder Council members by name, but all of them would know Krojun and likely for the good accomplishments he’s had, spinning this to look like a necessary action could be doable. Especially if we assume that he and Lilly have made any effort to prepare some decent propaganda. They’re the bad guys here, clearly. But some random peasant in Bravil isn’t going to know that. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

And it gives credence to what the opponents of the WG Tower stood against him for. 

Which is fine assuming this move has the appropriate consequences. You also know the Thalmor will take advantage.

I did mention long ago before Witch was Emperor such a move would be very costly, and honestly to me not even worth doing. I gave the green light thinking there’d be much more political maneuvering for the plot but even so I still expected there to be consequences and we haven’t seen the results of this action yet so I’ll give it time before I judge fully.

But as of now this to me was as bad a move as I thought it’d be years ago. Even if you do replace the council. That influence doesn’t just go away. The long term effects after the war will be quite interesting to see too. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

I don’t think this is something you could sweep away regardless of the cover up story, not every last member plus family disappearing all at once.

@BigBossBalrog I agree with what you said for Lillys reasonings not to bang. I just mean that her reasons, the autopsy, and all that were kinda transparent. Like, if y’all want to have scenes where she just ain’t in the mood, maybe discuss it more, and if you yourself don’t feel up to it just fade to black.

[Celan]

I'm not talking about peasants. Elder Council members would have allies, they would themselves be business people and landowners and veterans. Some will see it as a chance to profit from their demise but these would have been people who would have survived Thalmor purges and accepted Krojun's rule. There was no outward dissent. Maggie's intuition about it (which could have been wrong, BTW) was just that. Publicly there was no great dissent, just the usual grumbling and jockeying for position. Not that I've seen written about, anyway.

If you can't paint the other guy as a bad guy, don't go aheaad and plaster an Evil Bastard sign on yourself.

Now, Maggie did recommend dissolving the Council- but that would be under pretext of declaring martial law, sending them back to their estates to prepare for war etc.

Do we have any example in Cyrodiilic history of an entire Elder Council being murdered? Curious to know if there's a precedent.

[TheCzarsHussar]

I see this whole thing as a Sulla x100, fear will keep the nobles from directly opposing Krojun but I'll be calling some serious bullshit if the nobility, seeing entire families of Cyrodiil's high noblity swept under the rug and not secretly oppose him. It doesn't have to be great conspiracies with other nobles, but there'd be some wide spread personal grievances and fears for themselves.

You need only look at history to see how moves like these will play out.

[The Good Doctor]

24 minutes ago, Celan said:

Do we have any example in Cyrodiilic history of an entire Elder Council being murdered? Curious to know if there's a precedent.

Nope. Potema is the only ruler I can think of who maybe would’ve tried to if she’d been able. Other than that, there have just been emperors who fought them.

Though after the Oblivion Crisis the Council seemed to be more a mess of people grabbing power and killing each other than an actual council. That might be the closest we’ve come in the last two eras to a time when they weren’t really present.

[BigBossBalrog]

Well, throughout the two posts, Lilly was like "Are you sure you want to do this? There's going to be consequences." So she herself is just following orders at the point (she knows Krojun will do this with or without her, she might as well get something out of this move, which is her being able to put several of her own allies on the new council, and get more favor from Krojun.) 

Like I said before, Dales really won't be happy about this move. She dislikes much of the Elder Council, but perfectly understands it's necessity. And the slaughter of innocent children (which she knows will probably be attributed to her) will damage her relationship with Krogun like nothing else. 

When Witch came to me with the idea, I thought "Jesus fucking Christ this is going to backfire" but since I think it's very in character with Krojun, I thought it would make sense for it to happen, even if I personally think he really shouldn't have done it.

I think he should have just did what Vader did when he found out an Imperial Navy Officer tried to have him assassinated. Gather a bunch up, and murder five of them to send a message to the rest 

[The Good Doctor]

30 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I don’t think this is something you could sweep away regardless of the cover up story, not every last member plus family disappearing all at once.

Neither do I. Trying to cover it up would be foolish.