The Good Doctor Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 I think you might be inserting too much of what we know into what the Imperials know or the Blades believe. I don’t recall any sources claiming that it was known for a fact by Imperials that being dragonborn isn’t hereditary. And even if they knew it wasn’t always, they clearly believed it was in the case of the Septims, and since they cannot see the future, they had no way of knowing if the Septims were the last of it, or if more would pop up eventually. Instead of placing faith in the possibility of a new one appearing, they tried to take it upon themselves to ensure there was always one available. 8 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: Anyway, it’s not that important why he was in despair but I don’t think he’d be trying to warn people and say “you should’ve acted” and all that if he thought they were doomed from the get go since Martin is dead. At that point why bother, you’re slrrady fucked. What else is there to do? The Tongues delayed Alduin without Miraak’s help, so it’s doable. Esbern sounded like he was scolding people, perhaps by saying they were horribly unprepared even though all the signs were there that danger was coming. 11 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: Someone like Esbern I’m sure would be aware of the possibility of other Dragonborn. The prophesy stating there’d be one in this point in time would at least open him to that possibility. He may have been searching for one while the Thalmor were after him as he was studying dragon lore. If Esbern still believed that there would be one at this time, he wouldn’t have locked himself in his room and become a doomsayer. He says that there is no hope, and he is utterly shocked when a dragonborn appears. If he thought we were coming, he’d have been like “it’s about time”, not “Holy shit, I guess there is hope after all!” 17 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: And it wouldn’t be meaningless for the purpose of the prophesy or to the blades as far as there being relatives in High Rock or wherever. I meant meaningless in the context of Oblivion. They’d all obviously be dead by Skyrim, and their descendants probably untraceable. 13 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: In fact, now that I think about it, why would the blades go on to exist after Martin’s death? If you remember, Delphene actually states that they were looking for a Dragon born. That has to be the reason why they kept going after that point. After they failed. Otherwise, why not just be re-absorbed into the Legion. So they knew that there was at least a possibility of dragonborn existing even with Martins death. Some did at least. And if they were smart, they probably would’ve been looking in High Rock and Skyrim, since those are the places where Septims historically married other rulers. It may not be a certainty, but it’s more to go on than just wandering around hoping a random one would pop up. And even if they believed there was the possibility, I’m not sure if hey knew it 100%. It’s a debated topic for a reason. 13 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: I also feel like if they really believe that the Dragon born were all related, that Delphene would’ve been like oh shit, you are Dragon born! But how the fuck is that possible? I was thinking it’d be more like “Oh shit you are dragonborn! I guess that confirms the non-birthers right.” * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 It’s in the very first book you pick up in Skyrim that scholars are aware of the heredity connection not being true On the Dragonborn or whatever. Esbern and the others very well may have searched in High Rock and definitely Skyrim but nothing turned up, not before the Thalmor hunted them down almost to the last and they no longer could search. Perhaps he thought they were the only ones knowledgeable enough to find one and didn’t expect one to just randomly pop up in his face lol. Would easily explain his surprise. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Well, not always being true that is. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 It wasn’t just surprise though. It literally rocked his world and in his own words, gave him hope. If Esbern had full faith in the prophesy playing out no matter what, then he would have just expected a dragonborn to pop up eventually and never would have lost hope to begin with. And he wouldn’t have told people that they should have acted if he thought that there wasn’t more they could’ve done (prior to Alduin’s return) without aid from a dragonborn. 12 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: Well, not always being true that is. I think this is the important part. Even if they believed it was possible for a dragonborn to appear without kinship to he original bloodlines, they couldn’t know for certain that one would. Historically, the only reliable, tried and true way to know there will be a dragonborn was to ensure the survival of the known bloodlines. Once they failed at that, everything became uncertain. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I’d have my world rocked too prophesy or not if the messiah came to my doorstep. Perhaps he meant for them to act as far as stopping the Thalmor goes to prevent them from killing off in his mind the one group that could find the drsgonborn and lead him to the correct path, which in fact is exactly what happened. They still had enough to believe it wasn’t the case. Specifically this was a cult of Talos, people that would’ve studied bloodlines to him and realize all the Emperors weren’t related. I just don’t buy Esbern buying that line when he’s pretty intelligible when it comes to dragon lore. Someone trying to save the world and studying this prophesy. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 8 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: I’d have my world rocked too prophesy or not if the messiah came to my doorstep. I mean, yeah, but there’s a difference between being excited that it’s finally happening and getting your faith restored. Esbern has blatantly lost hope, and only regained it when a dragonborn appeared. There’d be no reason to lose it if he had total faith in the prophesy. 11 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: They still had enough to believe it wasn’t the case. Specifically this was a cult of Talos, people that would’ve studied bloodlines to him and realize all the Emperors weren’t related. I just don’t buy Esbern buying that line when he’s pretty intelligible when it comes to dragon lore. Someone trying to save the world and studying this prophesy. What I’m saying is that even if they did believe dragonborns could just be born outside of the bloodlines (which is likely in Esbern’s case), it’s not sure fire that another one would. With the Septims, they had a garauntee. Without them, they had to run on nothing but faith. When shit went bad and still no dragonborn appeared, Esbern lost his. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 Just now, The Good Doctor said: When shit went bad and still no dragonborn appeared, Esbern lost his. At which point I think it’s probable that he’d have thought back on the Blades’ duty to protect the dragonborns and come to conclusion that they may have fucked up. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 There’s room for both interpretations really so I’ll have to simply agree to disagree. 1 "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 5 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: There’s room for both interpretations really so I’ll have to simply agree to disagree. One of these days we’ll finish by agreeing to agree. 1 * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 2 hours ago, The Good Doctor said: One of these days we’ll finish by agreeing to agree. I think we do more often than not, but we’ve discussed those topics already so all there is is stuff like this that has no real definite answer. 1 "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBossBalrog Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/7ujbcx/all_10_playable_factions_in_thrones_of_britannia/?st=jd4tiudc&sh=6a3394f3 So we got alot of new info on the new Viking Total War game. Really really cool stuff, they basically overhauled everything. Alot of people seem to be confused...according to Creative Assembly, all the Pagans (Vikings and Gaelic Irish) converted to Christianity by 878 AD. Is this the case, because alot of people are saying it isn't...I wanted to play as a Pagan berserker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCzarsHussar Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 8 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said: https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/7ujbcx/all_10_playable_factions_in_thrones_of_britannia/?st=jd4tiudc&sh=6a3394f3 So we got alot of new info on the new Viking Total War game. Really really cool stuff, they basically overhauled everything. Alot of people seem to be confused...according to Creative Assembly, all the Pagans (Vikings and Gaelic Irish) converted to Christianity by 878 AD. Is this the case, because alot of people are saying it isn't...I wanted to play as a Pagan berserker. What? I know the people ruled over by Danelaw were mostly Christians but the Norse themselves would hold true to their ways at this point in time. There were still conversions and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBossBalrog Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 11 minutes ago, TheCzarsHussar said: What? I know the people ruled over by Danelaw were mostly Christians but the Norse themselves would hold true to their ways at this point in time. There were still conversions and the like. Ah that's really weird then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCzarsHussar Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 22 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said: Ah that's really weird then. There will be mods to fix that, looking at your link I admit its gotten me a little excited. Might pick up that game if word spreads that its good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celan Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, TheCzarsHussar said: As if Legends wasn't bad enough, the voice acting. Holy crap. I didn't see this earlier. Behold Douche-oth Ur. 9 hours ago, The Good Doctor said: That has me thinking, do y’all think Esbern’s dialogue from the trailer is canon? ”You should have acted. They’re already here. The Elder Scrolls told of their return. Etc...” If so, who do y’all think he was meant to be speaking to? It seems like he is addressing the Empire, or a fellow Blade. And it seems to be after he’s met the Dragonborn. I assumed he means the dragons, and he's talking to the Blades- or to the empire generally really. 9 hours ago, ColonelKillaBee said: As for the pattern of the prisoner’s actions having some negative effect on the place they did it, I’m not so sure about that. Daggerfall at least depending on what ending anyway was fine. Talos became a god, warp in the West ended the constant warring in High Rock. The worst thing to happen at most was Mannimarco in one of the timelines became a god. Which resulted in High Rock's subjugation to the Empire. Edited February 1, 2018 by Celan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 8 minutes ago, Celan said: Which resulted in High Rock's subjugation to the Empire. In their case I’d argue it was a good thing. Not that the Empire was why they finally had peace, but that it was a fair trade. Its not on par with a Nord bringing back an elven god, or the destruction of Morrowind for instance. High Rock after the events of Daggerfall came on top, even mythically if you believe Talos was a Breton. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 But yes, heroes bring about great change with their actions in the setting. Think Ayrenn has a quote about that. Some good, some bad. That’s the nature of a prisoner, they’re a wild card. 1 "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 10 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: Some good, some bad. That’s the nature of a prisoner, they’re a wild card. Yeah, I don’t think that the Events of the Elder Scrolls prophesies are inherently tied towards positive or negative change. Just change in general. If either Harkon or Vyrthur has succeeded, they would’ve been a capital H Hero by definition. But it seems like there would’ve been a lot more bad from what they did than good, whereas in the cases of the games’ protagonists, it seems to more often be a lot of good and then a lot of bad in the longer run. There’s no real consistency, which fits what you said aboht them being wild cards. 1 * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Indeed. Which ain’t to say Celan is wrong or anything, I could guess there’d be some negative effects as a result of the Dragonborn’s actions but it’s not like it has to be or that the patterns always gonna be a negative outcome. The story from the third era carrying on to the fourth was always to be a downward slope anyway because it was told from the POV of an Empire centered culture. A dying Empire. Then moving into the fourth era we for the first time get to strike against the Empire and finally push away from that perspective which is huge. 1 "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTC Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 53 minutes ago, Celan said: Which resulted in High Rock's subjugation to the Empire. What do you mean by this? High Rock was already part of the Empire at that time of the Warp in the West. Or did you just mean it allowed more effective control by the Empire 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 35 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: Indeed. Which ain’t to say Celan is wrong or anything, I could guess there’d be some negative effects as a result of the Dragonborn’s actions but it’s not like it has to be or that the patterns always gonna be a negative outcome. The story from the third era carrying on to the fourth was always to be a downward slope anyway because it was told from the POV of an Empire centered culture. A dying Empire. Then moving into the fourth era we for the first time get to strike against the Empire and finally push away from that perspective which is huge. Plus, negative outcomes are generally more fun and exciting for the overall narrative than everything being hunky dory. I liked how Bethesda pulled a fast one on us with the consequences of Morrowind’s plot. Oblivion takes place only six years later and by all accounts, Morrowind is fine. Slavery has been abolished, Jiub became a saint for driving out the cliffracers, and the Dunmer seem to be surviving without the Tribunal. The only question is why the fuck didn’t the Nerevarine finish uniting the houses and drive out the Empire like he was supposed to? Then Infernal City comes along and reveals that things seemed fine in Oblivion because the Dunmer were sacrificing the souls of innocents to a machine that kept the meteor from striking them. And they failed. Now the Ashlanders and remaining Great Houses have united under one religion, and Vvardenfell is an apocalyptic wasteland with no Imperials in sight. GG Nerevarine. 1 1 * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCzarsHussar Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 6 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said: GG Nerevarine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 28 minutes ago, BTCollins said: What do you mean by this? High Rock was already part of the Empire at that time of the Warp in the West. Or did you just mean it allowed more effective control by the Empire You and Celan probably both know more than me about High Rock’s lore, but I believe that during the events of Daggerfall, the Empire’s control over High Rock was tenuous at best. Basically only controlled it on paper. Which is why they had to send an undercover agent to deal with the problems there. Practically everyone who had power in the Iliac Bay region did what they pleased. It’s only after the Warp in the West that this changed. 1 * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 That’s true, though that also meant lots of fighting, lots of instability which is why to me it was a fair trade even if it meant better control by the Empire. 1 "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said: That’s true, though that also meant lots of fighting, lots of instability which is why to me it was a fair trade even if it meant better control by the Empire. In my opinion, that depends on what would’ve come out of the fighting. We’ll never find out, so it’s impossible to know for sure. Though I do think that peace is a good enough result for your stance to be reasonable. And out of all the non-Cyrodiilic provinces, High Rock has arguably been treated the best and benefited the most. Particularly their nobility. Plus, the Talos oversoul merging is indisputably good for all humans. As far as negatives go, there were still a lot. They just weren’t as obvious as the consequences of the later games. Mannimarco’s apotheosis. This may have helped cause the resurgence of the Worm Cult and overall rise in necromancy across Tamriel. The weakening of Breton power independent of the Legion, which likely (if the other provinces are any indication) caused them to suffer more during the Oblivion Crisis when Cyrodiil called all troops to defend it. Another step in the fulfillment of the World Eater prophesy. The Orcs get screwed no matter what. Even in the event that they succeed, the nature of the dragon break means they still get wrecked. Same goes for the other competing factions of Iliac Bay. Lots of kings and noble causes probably died when the Warp happened. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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