Roleplayer's Off Topic Thread #29

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 minute ago, The Good Doctor said:

It is suggested in the passage you linked. 

this short, savage campaign was won by the Thalmor even before first blood was drawn. They waited and watched their enemy, they chose where and when they would attack. 

It was a surprise attack launched from within Valenwood’s own borders by Bosmer and Altmer alike. It says had won before first blood was even drawn. That’s how overwhelmingly better positioned they were to pull this off. They had Bosmer on their side. In Valenwood. That’s a big deal and no doubt played a big part in the decisiveness of their victory.

The Great War is totally different. The Imperials didn’t suddenly start killing their masters in any massive coup. It was a full fledged invasion by a foreign empire, with big ass armies conquering city by city.

I never said that elves are more numerous than men, but a smaller population empire that has been preparing for war will typically have a larger force than one that is unprepared for it. At least at first as raising armies takes time. By the end of the Great War, it likely evened out as Mede got his shit together and the Nords started coming into play.

Short doesn't suggest the magnitude of the attack was small, and "big ass army" still doesn't say anything about its size in comparison to the Imperial legion.

I don't see it, they made a very big deal in lore about how bad the birth rate for elves is compared to men, multiple times. They mentioned it with the Dunmer, the Old Ehlnofey vs the Wandering Ehlnofey, they mentioned it with the Snow Elves even if that theory of why they attacked wasn't likely true, or both were true.

Elves have never matched the numbers of men, it's always been magic, daedra summons, or subjugating another population that helped them match them.

And even were that the case, it doesn't mean their tactics and way of warfare would changed.

[ColonelKillaBee]

In fact, that they struck so hard and fast in the Empire and took the Imperial city suggests it hadn't, as well of course that the Empire was unprepared, but that was true in Valenwood as well.

[ColonelKillaBee]

11 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Simple. They had over a hundred years of planning and building armies vs the Empire who we all know were caught with their pants down. They didn’t even have time to rally and organize all of Cyrodiil’s fighting forces before the Dominion first struck, let alone the provincial legions. When they finally did, the tide turned in their favor.

Just saying "simple" and saying what they did doesn't magically make it so, there's nothing suggesting their numbers matched the Legion's, not a thing. A "big" elven force that is smaller than the legion's is still very dangerous because they have more mages. And their battlemages are likely better equipped and more naturally talented.

edit:

That they were caught with their pants down doesn't mean they didn't have the men, it just means they weren't deployed or located in Cyrodiil. Stretched too far trying to hold onto land they were losing elsewhere, etc. All that falls in with the idea that the Thalmor attack precisely, quickly, and when you're unawares, doesn't go against anything I said.

Edited June 11, 2020 by ColonelKillaBee

[The Good Doctor]

2 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Just saying "simple" and saying what they did doesn't magically make it so, there's nothing suggesting their numbers matched the Legion's, not a thing.

Saying that they won the Great War using superior mobility just because this was done in a different conflict over a century prior doesn’t magically make it so either. Especially when the context and setting of that conflict was completely different.

And yeah, it actually is pretty simple. As in, it’s common sense. They planned and prepared for the Great War for a long ass time. They were war-ready. The Empire wasn’t. The results and the authors of the books all agree on this point.

And I never said they had superior numbers. I even said the opposite. The Empire clearly had more overall. But a bunch of scattered, unsuspecting Legions spread all across Tamriel aren’t gonna be particularly useful against the Altmeri army that is currently focused entirely on sacking Leyawiin.

Had the Empire been prepared, as they are now, then we can assume there would’ve been numerous Legions down there prepared to fight back with superior numbers. Just as they did at the Battle of Red Ring.

Before that, however, we know for certain that an entire Legion was wiped out defending the Imperial City, and multiple others were forced to retreat north. It would take a pretty damned powerful force to defeat multiple Legions that are holding such a strong position (Legions in Mede’s Empire are said to be like 2000-2500 strong). Mede later returned with an even stronger force and defeated them, so obviously they had the numbers in the end, but that wasn’t the case at the time.

15 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

it's always been magic, daedra summons, or subjugating another population that helped them match them.

I’m sure there was plenty of this as well. I never said they didn’t have these advantages.

18 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

And even were that the case, it doesn't mean their tactics and way of warfare would changed.

Overthrowing the ruling faction of a relatively primitive province with help from natives who are infamously skilled at guerrilla warfare is not going to go over the same way as invading a rival empire with no help from within. 

The very fact that they were stated to have won before first blood was drawn is evidence of this. That was certainly not the case in Cyrodiil. Valenwood was short and bloody, with lots of help from the natives. Cyrodiil was a long, drawn out slug fest that spanned several years. Nothing about the two conflicts is depicted as similar apart from the fact that in both cases, the Empire was taken by surprise.

[ColonelKillaBee]

I'm just gonna agree to disagree, I don't see your arguments supported by whats stated tbh and you obviously have a difference of opinion in what you've read so this is gonna go on forever and I've got eso to play lol.

[The Good Doctor]

Just now, ColonelKillaBee said:

I'm just gonna agree to disagree, I don't see your arguments supported by whats stated tbh and you obviously have a difference of opinion in what you've read so this is gonna go on forever and I've got eso to play lol.

Except I’m backing my arguments with what’s actually stated and using context. But alright. Enjoy ESO.  

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, The Good Doctor said:

Except I’m backing my arguments with what’s actually stated and using context. But alright. Enjoy ESO.  

No you're not, lol you're ignoring lore  

[ColonelKillaBee]

To support your personal view of how you want the war to be, I might add.

[ColonelKillaBee]

In fact I'm the only one that posted supported evidence but go off I guess.

[ColonelKillaBee]

6 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

 

And I never said they had superior numbers. I even said the opposite. The Empire clearly had more overall. But a bunch of scattered, unsuspecting Legions spread all across Tamriel aren’t gonna be particularly useful against the Altmeri army that is currently focused entirely on sacking Leyawiin.

 

Then, yet again, I don't know what point you're making because like I said:

35 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

 

That they were caught with their pants down doesn't mean they didn't have the men, it just means they weren't deployed or located in Cyrodiil. Stretched too far trying to hold onto land they were losing elsewhere, etc. All that falls in with the idea that the Thalmor attack precisely, quickly, and when you're unawares, doesn't go against anything I said.

 

[ColonelKillaBee]

My whole entire point from the start was that the Dominion doesn't just lumber in from point of interest to point of interest, taking land slowly because their numbers can't support that kind of warfare, and even had they the numbers, their birthrate doesn't support that either.

The great war book shows this. They don't hold a line, they strike hard to make their enemy's line fold, and the one time they were forced to do otherwise, they lost the Imperial City. Nothing in lore goes against that and if you don't either, then you agree with me from the beginning.

[The Good Doctor]

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

No you're not, lol you're ignoring lore  

No I’m not. You’re ignoring context. To support your personal view of how you want the war to be, I might add. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, The Good Doctor said:

No I’m not. You’re ignoring context. To support your personal view of how you want the war to be, I might add. 

Horse shit, my context comes straight from every piece of elven warfare related lore in the series. They always use magic, subterfuge, knowledge, etc to win large wars. They have never been this large force of elves sweeping over a land. Never. 

[The Good Doctor]

4 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

In fact I'm the only one that posted supported evidence but go off I guess.

Your evidence was from a completely different war, under completely different circumstances, in a completely different century. I didn’t link the Great War book, but I did reference it and it wouldn’t have been hard to verify what I said for yourself.

It clearly states that multiple Legions were at the Imperial City at the time it fell, and that one got wiped out completely while the rest fled with Mede. Nothing suggests that they overtook the city by tricking them into opening their doors or "superior mobility" or anything like that. They straight up beat the defenders.

Here are the relevant bits:

In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all. During the spring, Aldmeri reinforcements gathered in southern Cyrodiil, and on 12th of Second Seed, they launched a massive assault on the Imperial City itself. One army drove north to completely surround the city, while Lord Naarifin's main force attacked the walls from the south, east, and west. 

While the Eighth Legion fought a desperate (and doomed) rearguard action on the walls of the city, Titus II broke out of the city to the north with his main army, smashing through the surrounding the Aldmeri forces and linking up with reinforcements marching south from Skyrim under General Jonna. 
 

Nothing about this suggests subterfuge or secret knowledge or any such thing. They straight up surrounded a city and forced a desperate retreat despite multiple Legions defending it. Legions contain 5000 men (my previous number was wrong. The 2500 number was only half a Legion). Like it or not, the Aldmeri put together a monster of an army.

[The Good Doctor]

9 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Horse shit, my context comes straight from every piece of elven warfare related lore in the series. They always use magic, subterfuge, knowledge, etc to win large wars. They have never been this large force of elves sweeping over a land. Never. 

If we’re going off the whole history of Tamriel, than elves have certainly raised big armies before. Not bigger than men, but still very large and powerful. This is even the context for a third of ESO’s setting.

But that is ultimately irrelevant because what elves have done in the past is not the same as what they are doing now. They also had never taken the Imperial City from humans before, and hardly ever waged war against humanity of this magnitude. The Great War is a hugely important event in Tamrielic history for a reason. It’s not some bog standard elven conflict. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

9 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Your evidence was from a completely different war, under completely different circumstances, in a completely different century. I didn’t link the Great War book, but I did reference it and it wouldn’t have been hard to verify what I said for yourself.

It clearly states that multiple Legions were at the Imperial City at the time it fell, and that one got wiped out completely while the rest fled with Mede. Nothing suggests that they overtook the city by tricking them into opening their doors or "superior mobility" or anything like that. They straight up beat the defenders.

Here are the relevant bits:

 

  Hide contents

 

In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all. During the spring, Aldmeri reinforcements gathered in southern Cyrodiil, and on 12th of Second Seed, they launched a massive assault on the Imperial City itself. One army drove north to completely surround the city, while Lord Naarifin's main force attacked the walls from the south, east, and west. 

While the Eighth Legion fought a desperate (and doomed) rearguard action on the walls of the city, Titus II broke out of the city to the north with his main army, smashing through the surrounding the Aldmeri forces and linking up with reinforcements marching south from Skyrim under General Jonna. 
 

Nothing about this suggests subterfuge or secret knowledge or any such thing. They straight up surrounded a city and forced a desperate retreat despite multiple Legions defending it. Legions contain 5000 men (my previous number was wrong. The 2500 number was only half a Legion). Like it or not, the Aldmeri put together a monster of an army.

Yet you don't see any talk about them taking locations on their way to the imperial city and they reach it unimpeded... I never said they took the Imperial city with trickery, I said they attacked particular targets and bypassed others, and that their invasion got to the city so quickly and they don't even mention other locations shows exactly my point.

Also, the rising threat is the only book that specifically characterizes the Thalmor and it falls exactly in line with how elves are always described. The Great War book however is quite vague yet even in that vagueness, what it doesn't say still shows exactly what I was saying all along.

They didn't stop to take other cities and the like, they attacked the Imperial city's supply lines, directly, then the city.

That's exactly the precise decisive method of fighting I was talking about, so nothing there contradicts what I said. In fact the Nord supply line is the only one that wasnt entirely closed off until the city fell. They couldn't have done that if they just lumbered in like an obese whale.

[ColonelKillaBee]

2 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

If we’re going off the whole history of Tamriel, than elves have certainly raised big armies before. Not bigger than men, but still very large and powerful. This is even the context for a third of ESO’s setting.

But that is ultimately irrelevant because what elves have done in the past is not the same as what they are doing now. They also had never taken the Imperial City from humans before, and hardly ever waged war against humanity of this magnitude. The Great War is a hugely important event in Tamrielic history for a reason. It’s not some bog standard elven conflict. 

And I never said they didn't raise large armies, but "large" in this context is different from that of humans, they always say they had to use magic and treachery, daedric tricks to make up what they lacked to match men. Even with large armies. 

That isn't irrelevant unless you assume just because they were successful now that things had to be different and you are assuming quite a bit from a book that states so little.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

and that their invasion got to the city so quickly and they don't even mention other locations shows exactly my point.

But it wasn’t and they did. The war lasted four years and they only reached the city during at the end of the first, and only took it on the third.

Leyawiin and Bravil are both mentioned as obstacles that they had to deal with and ultimately fell to them. Of course not every battle along the way is going to be mentioned in a short lore book, but that alone contradicts your point that no other cities or locations even got mentioned. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 minute ago, The Good Doctor said:

But it wasn’t and they did. The war lasted four years and they only reached the city during at the end of the first, and only took it on the third.

Leyawiin and Bravil are both mentioned as obstacles that they had to deal with and ultimately fell to them. Of course not every battle along the way is going to be mentioned in a short lore book, but that alone contradicts your point that no other cities or locations even got mentioned. 

I'm talking about AFTER they decided to take the Imperial city. Before they didn't even think that they could take it. Once they saw how easily those forces fell, they moved on the Imperial city, and reaching the capital within the year when it says legion forces kept gathering and gathering is pretty dang quick, especially being able to assault all of their supply lines, albeit being unable to take the Nordic one.

That mede was able to fight his way out of a besieged city and escape should also show that holding a line really isn't their forte. 

[BigBossBalrog]

"A Redguard and a Nord, the two ex legionaries Javooooonnnn and some random "good" combat medic have published a history of the Great, titled, "IT WENT THIS WAY, NO IT WENT THIS WAY", whose pages consist of the two yelling at each other and disagreeing what actually happened. The Empress has been quoted in response saying, "If I wanted a failed state, I would go to Morrowind." 

[ColonelKillaBee]

They're almost exclusively a force known to be good on an attack. Every last defensive front they took, they lost. That is consistent with a smaller force that while great in numbers, for them, is still not used to fighting that way, especially not against a legion that works in unison with shield walls and in heavy armor.

There's no way four foot tall bosmer, some lightweight furries with the occasional giant cat thats also a big target for arrows and fire magic, and the occasional linky tall elf could hold a line against solid imperial and Nordic forces without the help of surprise and magic, as well as spies and elite scouts. We know they have all of that.

Alinor is also one province, the legion has Cyrodiil, Skyrim, Hammerfell and High Rock to make soldiers of, and I sincerely doubt that after an Oblivion invasion they didn't think to raise more soldiers when their Empire was severely hurt. That would put them in panic mode to raise armies and gain control.

Only way in my opinion that this makes sense that they were caught off guard is that their legions were busy holding the peace elsewhere in other territories thought to possibly secede next, and we do see that with Hammerfell, which is why the Empire called his legions away from there, as much as would leave.

And yes I recognize that you again didn't say that they outnumbered or matched the humans, but my point is the humans eventually got their shit together even before the Imperial City was taken, and yet they still took the city, and you'd need to ask how.

Does anyone here truly see these small bosmer, cats and linky Altmer taking on the legion of a united human force one on one without the help of magic and the like? Because I sincerely do not.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, BigBossBalrog said:

"A Redguard and a Nord, the two ex legionaries Javooooonnnn and some random "good" combat medic have published a history of the Great, titled, "IT WENT THIS WAY, NO IT WENT THIS WAY", whose pages conist of the two yelling at each other and disagreeing what actually happened. The Empress has been quoted in response saying, "If I wanted a failed state, I would go to Morrowind." 

Morrowind is far from a failed state  

[BigBossBalrog]

6 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

They're almost exclusively a force known to be good on an attack. Every last defensive front they took, they lost. That is consistent with a smaller force that while great in numbers, for them, is still not used to fighting that way, especially not against a legion that works in unison with shield walls and in heavy armor.

There's no way four foot tall bosmer, some lightweight furries with the occasional giant cat thats also a big target for arrows and fire magic, and the occasional linky tall elf could hold a line against solid imperial and Nordic forces without the help of surprise and magic, as well as spies and elite scouts. We know they have all of that.

Alinor is also one province, the legion has Cyrodiil, Skyrim, Hammerfell and High Rock to make soldiers of, and I sincerely doubt that after an Oblivion invasion they didn't think to raise more soldiers when their Empire was severely hurt. That would put them in panic mode to raise armies and gain control.

Only way in my opinion that this makes sense that they were caught off guard is that their legions were busy holding the peace elsewhere in other territories thought to possibly secede next, and we do see that with Hammerfell, which is why the Empire called his legions away from there, as much as would leave.

And yes I recognize that you again didn't say that they outnumbered or matched the humans, but my point is the humans eventually got their shit together even before the Imperial City was taken, and yet they still took the city, and you'd need to ask how.

Does anyone here truly see these small bosmer, cats and linky Altmer taking on the legion of a united human force one on one without the help of magic and the like? Because I sincerely do not.

I'd think a battle line of heavily armored, veteran High Elf spellblades would be a terrifying sight 

[ColonelKillaBee]

And to clarify, no I'm not saying General Decianus was there before the battle of the red ring.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, BigBossBalrog said:

I'd think a battle line of heavily armored High Elf spellblades would be a terrifying site 

Spellblades, yes lol, but not just run of the mill high elf warriors. Who would most certainly not match the legion in number of heavy armored troops.