Roleplayer's Off Topic Thread #29

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

and y'all are going by the rp. 

I mean, yeah. That’s how the conversation started. 

[BigBossBalrog]

Well you can infer how shitty the Heartland is by the state of the Empire, and Blades. 

BTW, it's proof that Bethesda was lazy then, and it still lazy now 

 

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, The Good Doctor said:

I mean, yeah. That’s how the conversation started. 

...and I showed pics from eso, so that should've made it obvious I wasn't that invested in the convo as you lol.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Now, all that said and if I were to get serious on the topic, repairing the forts in 4E would be beneficial, but it would do absolutely nothing on their own to stop an invading force from simply walking past the forts and moving on to a different target. You still need obstacles in the land to actually impede progression to the city.

Unless those forts had walls extending over a distance, and they blocked off roads at checkpoints, it would be meaningless.

2E Cyrodiil actually has many of these checkpoints and gates impeding progress. You often have to actually take these targets to make use of the roads. You can of course run around them most of the time still, but so could the opposing force, and open ground isn't the best place for supply routes and the like.

edit: Also even accounting small countryside forts, these bigger ones in ESO are completely nonexistent in Oblivion, and I highly doubt even after all these wars that in the height of Talos' Empire for instance that they wouldn't have either repaired or made their own. 

So yea, Oblivion isn't the best representation of the infrastructure of Cyrodiil.

[The Good Doctor]

38 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

...and I showed pics from eso, so that should've made it obvious I wasn't that invested in the convo as you lol.

Which is why I joked about it.  

29 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Now, all that said and if I were to get serious on the topic, repairing the forts in 4E would be beneficial, but it would do absolutely nothing on their own to stop an invading force from simply walking past the forts and moving on to a different target. You still need obstacles in the land to actually impede progression to the city.

Depends on the size of the force and the method of invasion. If they are just one massive army that is slowly conquering the land city by city, then surviving forts that were left behind them can badly hurt their supply lines if you’re also willing to do what it takes to deny them access to the resources of your own lands, like Baldur did when he torched the farms in southern Skyrim. A fortress garrison can do a lot if it’s not tied down by siege. And if the invading force leaves behind men to plug up the fort, then that’s a lot of men being drawn away from the main army’s number.

And for the record, I’m not saying Cyrodiil doesn’t have any effectively designed/placed forts or that Oblivion is a totally accurate depiction of what they’re like. Rather, that it’s an indicator of their dilipodated state, which Skyrim supports and more importantly, our RP does. Which is the whole reason why I said Dales would do well to repair them.

[ColonelKillaBee]

7 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Which is why I joked about it.  

I found it odd lol since it seemed to suggest I thought 4E Oblivion looks like 2E, and obviously I don't  I just don't think it should look as bad as Oblivion does. You know 2E Cyrodiil even has the japanese styled rice farm plains? That wouldn't just go away imo. Neither would those big ass forts, at least not all of them, and not completely without a trace.

[ColonelKillaBee]

9 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Which is why I joked about it.  

Depends on the size of the force and the method of invasion. If they are just one massive army that is slowly conquering the land city by city, then surviving forts that were left behind them can badly hurt their supply lines if you’re also willing to do what it takes to deny them access to the resources of your own lands, like Baldur did when he torched the farms in southern Skyrim. A fortress garrison can do a lot if it’s not tied down by siege. And if the invading force leaves behind men to plug up the fort, then that’s a lot of men being drawn away from the main army’s number.

Indeed tho if that invading force is at all mobile, which the Thalmor definitely was, then those little forts dotting the land wouldn't do a great deal in my opinion beyond be a distraction on occasion.

[The Good Doctor]

4 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

You know 2E Cyrodiil even has the japanese styled rice farm plains? That wouldn't just go away imo. Neither would those big ass forts, at least not all of them, and not completely without a trace.

I clarified on this in my last post. I was saying that Oblivion is not a better indicator than ESO of what Cyrodiil’s forts are like by the time of the RP, but rather the poor state that they are in.

4 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Indeed tho if that invading force is at all mobile, which the Thalmor definitely was, then those little forts dotting the land wouldn't do a great deal in my opinion beyond be a distraction on occasion.

You’re talking about Naarifin’s army, right? Nothing really indicates that they were particularly more mobile than any other big army in Tamriel. Nothing is said about how many mounted units they had or that mages were teleporting their army around or anything like that. The bulk of them most likely marched like everyone else. 

[BigBossBalrog]

34 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Which is the whole reason why I said Dales would do well to repair them.

Unless Corvus is carrying a giant ATM on his back that will be very difficult  She already knows she can't afford the roads.

[ColonelKillaBee]

20 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

I clarified on this in my last post. I was saying that Oblivion is not a better indicator than ESO of what Cyrodiil’s forts are like by the time of the RP, but rather the poor state that they are in.

You’re talking about Naarifin’s army, right? Nothing really indicates that they were particularly more mobile than any other big army in Tamriel. Nothing is said about how many mounted units they had or that mages were teleporting their army around or anything like that. The bulk of them most likely marched like everyone else. 

I'm pretty sure the great war book mentions that their style of war was different from others because they didn't have the numbers to fight head to head every time, and they usually bum rushed targets hard, then left.

That's why Naarifin lost, he tried keeping the IC because he underestimated them, and they didnt come to Cyrodiil to actually conquer, just to soften them up. The real target was Hammerfell.

[Centurion]

3 hours ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

#EndConsoles2020

I support this message 

[ColonelKillaBee]

How to piss off a crowd of people while fishing

Drop a Pact flag and shit talk elves while they’re already frustrated at RNG looking for leads

My new favorite passtime

[TheCzarsHussar]

@BigBossBalrog Wow, Troy's campaign map is literally just western coastal Anatolia and the Aegean sea+Greece.

I thought I'd be the entire eastern Mediterranean. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by TheCzarsHussar

[The Good Doctor]

12 hours ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I'm pretty sure the great war book mentions that their style of war was different from others because they didn't have the numbers to fight head to head every time, and they usually bum rushed targets hard, then left.

I don’t think anything in the Great War book suggests that their style of war was different or that they had smaller numbers. In fact, the invasion force appears to have been quite large as it was split yet still able to consistently force Legion retreats and ultimately laid siege on the Imperial City (which generally requires many times more numbers than the defenders) while an entire Legion defended it, and caused several more Legions to retreat.

[The Good Doctor]

9 hours ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

How to piss off a crowd of people while fishing

Drop a Pact flag and shit talk elves while they’re already frustrated at RNG looking for leads

My new favorite passtime

Mind if I steal this?  

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 hour ago, The Good Doctor said:

I don’t think anything in the Great War book suggests that their style of war was different or that they had smaller numbers. In fact, the invasion force appears to have been quite large as it was split yet still able to consistently force Legion retreats and ultimately laid siege on the Imperial City (which generally requires many times more numbers than the defenders) while an entire Legion defended it, and caused several more Legions to retreat.

I know I didn't make that up, it's either in the great war book or rising threat

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 hour ago, The Good Doctor said:

Mind if I steal this?  

 Go ahead. 

One person put me on ignore after I said elf ears make the best bait, and asking wheres the guild for TRUE NORDS ONLY. They said I mean racist nords, and i said everyone deserves a safe space, even Nords, tho it wouldn't be safe for elves and leather boots  

[The Good Doctor]

5 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I know I didn't make that up, it's either in the great war book or rising threat

I read Great War this morning so it’s definitely not in there. I might check Rising Threat later, but GW really seems to portray their army as pretty damned overwhelming. They took the Imperial City by straight up (almost) surrounding and overpowering the defenders, and while it actually does go into some detail about the strategies employed, it is all pretty common stuff and never really mentions that they used particularly unorthodox methods.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Found it, it was talking about their invasion of Valenwood:

There are those who claim the combined Altmer and Bosmer forces greatly out-matched the Empire, but this is a farce. This short, savage campaign was won by the Thalmor even before first blood was drawn. They waited and watched their enemy, they chose where and when they would attack. The Thalmor were able to bring the full fury of their small contingent of Altmer and Bosmer to any of several Imperial strongholds.

Contrary to the posturing of the Empire's generals, the Thalmor did not command greater numbers. They had better spies and greater mobility, and knew how best to use them. This is the menace that the Thalmor represent! They are cruel and merciless, but they are no fools! They are devious and subtle, and so very patient.

In one fell stroke, the Thalmor took a strategic foothold on the mainland of Tamriel and prevented any significant attempt the Empire could have made to invade Summerset Isle and depose the tyranny of the Thalmor. At the same time, they took a better vantage to continue to watch the Empire and wait. In so doing, they also revived the Aldmeri Dominion with their alliance to the Bosmer of Valenwood!

 

Now, obviously this could change considering they went from having half of Valenwood or more to all of it, but elves are still elves and the whole low birth thing extends to all of them, so it wouldn't change that much if you ask me.

Granted of course they're not very specific about what they meant by better mobility beyond having good spies but I would assume this means scouts, mages, magically enhancing troop speed, mount speed, etc, but that's up for the reader to decide for now. It still suggests that the Thalmor wouldn't be able to match the numbers of the legion, which makes sense since they're primarily human. All they'd have for soldiers or shock troopers is khajiit, some of them, goblins, and some more solid elven soldiers.

[The Good Doctor]

That wasn’t the Cyrodiil campaign. Or even part of the Great War. That was the Valenwood conquest over a hundred years prior, and it was less a total war and more a well-planned overthrow with native Bosmer allies. Everyone knows how well the Bosmer operate in their forests.

The Great War was a totally different kind of warfare. Like a World War compared to Vietnam, except the Empire in Valenwood were defenders and didn’t even know what was coming.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Thats not whats suggested, it was big enough that the legion could lie and say they were outnumbered and people believed it. It was one province, but never suggested to be a small affair. Also its a lore fact that elves don't match in numbers with humans.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Also it is interesting too that when they discussed the Nord forces during the Imperial city invasion, they described the elven force's attacks as "piecemeal" which doesn't sound like they had all these numbers. Sounds more like when they had to hold a target instead of being the ones attacking and taking a target, they weren't as much a threat. They did lose decisively in that battle, even though they faced large imperial forces before without the help of imperial walls.

I dont see any way Altmer and bosmer suddenly overcame their low birthrate and outmanned the Empire which up until then had all human nations to draw men from.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Outmanned or matched, rather, their numbers.

[The Good Doctor]

8 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Thats not whats suggested, it was big enough that the legion could lie and say they were outnumbered and people believed it. It was one continent, but never suggested to be a small affair. Also its a lore fact that elves don't match in numbers with humans.

It is suggested in the passage you linked. 

this short, savage campaign was won by the Thalmor even before first blood was drawn. They waited and watched their enemy, they chose where and when they would attack. 

It was a surprise attack launched from within Valenwood’s own borders by Bosmer and Altmer alike. It says had won before first blood was even drawn. That’s how overwhelmingly better positioned they were to pull this off. They had Bosmer on their side. In Valenwood. That’s a big deal and no doubt played a big part in the decisiveness of their victory.

The Great War is totally different. Imperials didn’t suddenly start killing their masters in any massive coup. It was a full fledged invasion by a foreign empire, with big ass armies conquering city by city.

I never said that elves are more numerous than men, but a smaller population empire that has been preparing for war will typically have a larger force than one that is unprepared for it. At least at first as raising armies takes time. By the end of the Great War, it likely evened out and turned in the humans’ favor as Mede got his shit together and the Nords started coming into play.

[The Good Doctor]

7 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I dont see any way Altmer and bosmer suddenly overcame their low birthrate and outmanned the Empire which up until then had all human nations to draw men from.

Simple. They had over a hundred years of planning and building armies vs the Empire who we all know were caught with their pants down. They didn’t even have time to rally and organize all of Cyrodiil’s fighting forces before the Dominion first struck, let alone the provincial legions. When they finally did, the tide turned in their favor.