Roleplayer’s Off Topic Thread #14

[Witchking of Angmar]

41 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Robert was a crappy ruler but he wasn’t weak. The dude itched for another chance to fight. Being in Tywin’s debt is more reason, not less. And Ned’s notorious morals would’ve compelled him to make Tywin answer for committing attoricities on the neutral Riverlanders. At the very least, Tywin was playing with fire without any protection. If he was wrong, he would’ve died. It was a stupid move.

Yet when Ned brings up the whole ordeal with Tyrion, Robert just tells him that he's in dept and that Ned should just forget about and release Tyrion. Tywin clearly had more hold on Robert than he'd like to admit. 

41 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

There’s having luck and then there is the equivalent of lightning striking all of your enemies and leaving you as the victor. Tywin barely accomplished anything on his own during the war. He got outplayed by a teenage boy at every turn and then the stars aligned multiple times to hand him a decisive victory.

While it is true he didn't achieve much in the war and won just by being less politically incompetent than his opponents. He's still got the accomplishment of the Castemere rebellion where he in quick succession defeated two of the most power Houses in the West. So it seems age might have clouded his abilities and judgement. 

41 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

I’d agree that he was better at governing. But I wouldn’t say he was any more-so than Ned. Both of them ran things well. Both of them got played by Littlefinger and Varys. Tywin only survived King’s Landing because they had an interest in him not dying quite yet. It was the same for Ned, but Joffrey turned out to be a moronic psychopath.

Problem is Ned had really no intentions of playing the game well. Nor did he have the sense enough to avoid it. That is what got him killed more than anything Littlefinger or Varys could have done. Littlefinger says outright that Ned shouldn't trust him, yet instead of fleeing the capital or doing anything more sensible, he trusts the one of the most shady men in King's Landing that tried to kill his brother for Catelyn's hand to not betray him. Ned was simply too blind to the threats to live.  

Edited August 2, 2018 by Witchking of Angmar

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Yet when Ned brings up the whole ordeal with Tyrion, Robert just tells him that he's in dept and that Ned should just forget about and release Tyrion. Tywin clearly had more hold on Robert than he'd like to admit. 

He has hold, yeah. They’re the richest house in Westeros. But that can only go so far. We’ll never know how Robert would’ve answered the terrorism he committed in the Riverlands, but we do know what Ned would’ve pushed for.

4 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

While it is true he didn't achieve much in the war and won just by being less politically incompetent than his opponents. 

That’s a stretch. The Baratheons made very few mistakes politically or militarily. They stacked all the cards in their favor and lost because of a bunch things happening that were outside their control and impossible to predict. Robb was also banking on a Baratheon victory at the Blackwater, so his greatest mistake (the Frey thing) never would’ve had such consequences if luck hadn’t favored Tywin.

9 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

He's still got the accomplishment of the Castemere rebellion where he in quick succession defeated two of the most power Houses in the West. So it seems age might have clouded his abilities and judgement. 

Tywin is definitely ruthless. I’d never deny him that. But he never outsmarted them or anything. He just out-muscled them with greater force and then used measures that were way more extreme than anyone would’ve expected to deal the finishing blow.

12 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Problem is Ned had really no intentions of playing the game well. Nor did he have the sense enough to avoid it. That is what got him killed than anything Littlefinger or Varys could have done. Littlefinger says outright that Ned shouldn't trust him, yet instead of fleeing the capital or doing anything more sensible, he trusts the one of the most shady men in King's Landing that tried to kill his brother for Catelyn's hand to not betray him. Ned was simply too blind to the threats to live.  

Governing well doesn’t require “playing the game”. I’d argue that it’s the reason most of the rulers we see do a poor job in the first place. And however good Tywin was at running a tight ship, I don’t believe he was a great leader. People feared him, but they didn’t like him. That’s why his house started to crumble the moment he died. Meanwhile, the Northmen actually love the Starks because of Ned, though the show does a poorer job of depicting this than the books.

Littlefinger isn’t supposed to be obviously shady. We know he is because of dramatic irony. But to everyone else, he has been nothing but helpful and trustworthy. Cat vouched for him and the two of them grew up together. Not to mention, literally everyone got tricked by Littlefinger multiple times over. Ned just paid for it the hardest.

[Witchking of Angmar]

5 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

He has hold, yeah. They’re the richest house in Westeros. But that can only go so far. We’ll never know how Robert would’ve answered the terrorism he committed in the Riverlands, but we do know what Ned would’ve pushed for.

He didn't really do anything except run off on a hunt after Ned had been attacked in the street and heavily wounded. And by capturing and almost killing Tyrion without due process Tywin wouldd also have the excuse that the Starks started it. 

9 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

That’s a stretch. The Baratheons made very few mistakes politically or militarily. They stacked all the cards in their favor and lost because of a bunch things happening that were outside their control and impossible to predict. Robb was also banking on a Baratheon victory at the Blackwater, so his greatest mistake (the Frey thing) never would’ve had such consequences if luck hadn’t favored Tywin.

Apart from declaring war on each other for the crown, which if Renly hadn't been assassinated, would have led to a weakened and divided army. 

12 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Tywin is definitely ruthless. I’d never deny him that. But he never outsmarted them or anything. He just out-muscled them with greater force and then used measures that were way more extreme than anyone would’ve expected to deal the finishing blow.

He did outsmart them by having his forces already mustered and ready before provoking them into a rebellion. Thus able to march on them before they were able to respond. He even built siege engines in advance and was able to destroy the Tarbecks before the Reyne could arrive to help. 

18 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Governing well doesn’t require “playing the game”. I’d argue that it’s the reason most of the rulers we see do a poor job in the first place. And however good Tywin was at running a tight ship, I don’t believe he was a great leader. People feared him, but they didn’t like him. That’s why his house started to crumble the moment he died. Meanwhile, the Northmen actually love the Starks because of Ned, though the show does a poorer job of depicting this than the books.

Littlefinger isn’t supposed to be obviously shady. We know he is because of dramatic irony. But to everyone else, he has been nothing but helpful and trustworthy. Cat vouched for him and the two of them grew up together. Not to mention, literally everyone got tricked by Littlefinger multiple times over. Ned just paid for it the hardest.

In King's Landing ruling requires you to at least in part partake in the game. And while a lot of people didn't really like him, they at least respected him. His problem was less about maintaining love from his underlings than actually caring for his children. I'm sure if Tywin had been more accepting of Tyrion and even let him have Casterly, the Lannisters might have remained one of the greatest Houses in Westeros. 

Too bad that love didn't really last long when Robb beheaded Karstark and losing almost half his army. Even if Tywin was cruel, he managed to keep his forces together. And historically cruelty works better than love when it comes to handling an army. Hannibal was cruel in disciplining his soldiers and managed to keep a tight ship despite having an army of a rather diverse backgrounds. Whereas one Roman general (don't remember the name) was generally well liked but soft and suffered many insurrections because of it. 

Though Ned was also the one to place the most trust in Littlefinger. Just about everyone else were at least aware enough to be more careful than that around him. 

[TheCzarsHussar]

@BigBossBalrog I just looked at the graphical improvements the Ancestral Update provides, when they originally announced it I didn't give two shits but now having seen it I'm really hyped.

It makes the Campaign map much more pleasing to look at and they finally fucking made night battles have proper lighting.

[TheCzarsHussar]

I have some horrible news, my old 2009 pc won't boot up bast the Starting Windows screen and when I try system repair it cannot load it up either.

I think my pc has finally pooped out on me.

[ColonelKillaBee]

2009???

That’s great news, now you can upgrade. That thing needs to be taken to the backyard and fed some buckshot.

[The Good Doctor]

51 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

He didn't really do anything except run off on a hunt after Ned had been attacked in the street and heavily wounded. And by capturing and almost killing Tyrion without due process Tywin wouldd also have the excuse that the Starks started it. 

Yeah, he refused to rule and left Ned to make the calls. Ned proceeded to call for Tywin’s arrest. And attacking Ned was noted to be an extremely brazen move by Jaime. Ravaging the Riverlands was even more-so by Tywin. When de-escalation fails as it clearly was, who do you think Robert is going to eventually side with? The Lannisters or the man he considers a brother?

And Tyrion’s capture coming first doesn’t really matter, legally. You don’t get to wage war on innocent bystanders just because a different crime was committed against your son. Plus, Ned took credit for Tyrion’s arrest, which makes it publicly legal since he was the Hand of the King. They had solid evidence against Tyrion and they gave him a trial, shoddy as it was.

51 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Apart from declaring war on each other for the crown, which if Renly hadn't been assassinated, would have led to a weakened and divided army. 

But that wasn’t an option if either of them wanted to sit on the throne. From Renly’s perspective, the victory was assured. He had the biggest army in Westeros several times over, and could’ve crushed Stannis with minimal losses. From Stannis’ perspective, Renly’s death was a given because the flames has shown it and he had a magical trump card that nobody could’ve seen coming.

Either way, their army would not have been weakened enough to lose at the Blackwater. Stannis’ fleet got decimated by wildfire and he still would have won big time if Robb and Edmure’s blunder hadn’t pushed Tywin away from the West and given him the chance to make a dash for Stannis’ flank.

57 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

He did outsmart them by having his forces already mustered and ready before provoking them into a rebellion. Thus able to march on them before they were able to respond. He even built siege engines in advance and was able to destroy the Tarbecks before the Reyne could arrive to help. 

Fair enough. He was ready for war and they weren’t. But that doesn’t speak much for his actual ability to wage one without a massive advantage.

58 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

In King's Landing ruling requires you to at least in part partake in the game. And while a lot of people didn't really like him, they at least respected him. His problem was less about maintaining love from his underlings than actually caring for his children. I'm sure if Tywin had been more accepting of Tyrion and even let him have Casterly, the Lannisters might have remained one of the greatest Houses in Westeros. 

The failures of Tywin’s children after his death wouldn’t have been so drastic if their house was beloved like the Starks are. People hated the Lannisters. That’s why nobody came to Cersie’s aid despite her having tons of bannermen. 

1 hour ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Too bad that love didn't really last long when Robb beheaded Karstark and losing almost half his army. Even if Tywin was cruel, he managed to keep his forces together.

It brought them out of the woodwork to fight against the Boltons. But this is why I said the show did a poor job of depicting this whole dynamic. Because the books make it clear that the Northmen will die for Ned’s children years after his execution. While Tywin’s bannermen are like vultures who immediately start looking for ways to use his death to gain power. He had a strong run but did a shit job of securing his legacy, which is ironic considering that’s supposedly what mattered to him most.

1 hour ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

And historically cruelty works better than love when it comes to handling an army.

And it has only ended badly for every cruel person in this series. One of GRRM’s biggest themes is that greed and cruelty are easy and only pay off in the short term, while being decent is harder but has better results in the long run.

Plus, I’m talking about his governing style, not his army management.

1 hour ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Though Ned was also the one to place the most trust in Littlefinger. Just about everyone else were at least aware enough to be more careful than that around him. 

The Lannisters’ survival hinged on Littlefinger winning over the Tyrells. Tywin gave him the Vale which he later used to take out their only allies in the North.

The Lannisters placed just as much trust in him as Ned, and he had the chance to get them all killed but chose not to. If they were more aware of his nature than Ned was, then giving him so much power was even dumber on their part than it was on his.

[TheCzarsHussar]

11 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

2009???

That’s great news, now you can upgrade. That thing needs to be taken to the backyard and fed some buckshot.

I don't think we can afford a brand new (buildable) gaming pc, I absolutely have to find a way to boot this fucker up.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Worst case scenario you can get something decent for older games for 700. 

 

[ColonelKillaBee]

Will it just not receive power? Or is it trying to boot up?

[TheCzarsHussar]

Just now, ColonelKillaBee said:

Will it just not receive power? Or is it trying to boot up?

It's the black screen of death, it won't boot past the Starting Windows screen and if I try system repair it gives me a black screen with cursor.

I've spent quite a long time looking for a solution, don't have a repair disk that won't factory reset my pc which I can't do without backing up all my shit. Nor can I even start in safe mode because f8 isn't working and won't pull up Advanced Boot Options, nor can I msconfig because I can't boot my pc or load up command prompt.

In other words I'm royally fucked. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

Yea that’s all my suggestions  you might have to try a repair shop.

[TheCzarsHussar]

Just now, ColonelKillaBee said:

Yea that’s all my suggestions  you might have to try a repair shop.

Yeppington. That's my last shot as well.

[Witchking of Angmar]

5 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Yeah, he refused to rule and left Ned to make the calls. Ned proceeded to call for Tywin’s arrest. And attacking Ned was noted to be an extremely brazen move by Jaime. Ravaging the Riverlands was even more-so by Tywin. When de-escalation fails as it clearly was, who do you think Robert is going to eventually side with? The Lannisters or the man he considers a brother?

Neither. If Robert actually did take side in the war he'd lose either the North or the money that was keeping his rule afloat. I'm sure Robert would have argued for Tyrion's release and a peaceful settlement as much as possible because he cannot afford to loose either House. 

8 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

And Tyrion’s capture coming first doesn’t really matter, legally. You don’t get to wage war on innocent bystanders just because a different crime was committed against your son. Plus, Ned took credit for Tyrion’s arrest, which makes it publicly legal since he was the Hand of the King. They had solid evidence against Tyrion and they gave him a trial, shoddy as it was.

This a feudal society were commoners are viewed as lesser by the nobles. While Tywin's actions would be seen as brazen and misguided at best, I'm sure many nobles would view it as an understandable reaction. The arrest was also annulled by Robert when he ordered Ned to release Tyrion.

12 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

But that wasn’t an option if either of them wanted to sit on the throne. From Renly’s perspective, the victory was assured. He had the biggest army in Westeros several times over, and could’ve crushed Stannis with minimal losses. From Stannis’ perspective, Renly’s death was a given because the flames has shown it and he had a magical trump card that nobody could’ve seen coming.

Either way, their army would not have been weakened enough to lose at the Blackwater. Stannis’ fleet got decimated by wildfire and he still would have won big time if Robb and Edmure’s blunder hadn’t pushed Tywin away from the West and given him the chance to make a dash for Stannis’ flank.

It was still political incompetence on their parts to declare war on each other. Especially on Renly's part as if Stannis hadn't had magical aid, I'm sure Stannis would have found some way to claim what he viewed as his blood right. Even if it would have required more conventional means and standing down temporarily. Stannis isn't an idiot. 

19 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Fair enough. He was ready for war and they weren’t. But that doesn’t speak much for his actual ability to wage one without a massive advantage.

No, but it speaks to his ability to plan ahead of his opponents. At least in certain regards. 

20 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

The failures of Tywin’s children after his death wouldn’t have been so drastic if their house was beloved like the Starks are. People hated the Lannisters. That’s why nobody came to Cersie’s aid despite her having tons of bannermen. 

It brought them out of the woodwork to fight against the Boltons. But this is why I said the show did a poor job of depicting this whole dynamic. Because the books make it clear that the Northmen will die for Ned’s children years after his execution. While Tywin’s bannermen are like vultures who immediately start looking for ways to use his death to gain power. He had a strong run but did a shit job of securing his legacy, which is ironic considering that’s supposedly what mattered to him most.

Few people also liked Cersei to begin with. And that's more the problem with Tywin, he had no real successor. Jaime wouldn't and Tyrion was never given the chance. 

24 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

And it has only ended badly for every cruel person in this series. One of GRRM’s biggest themes is that greed and cruelty are easy and only pay off in the short term, while being decent is harder but has better results in the long run.

Plus, I’m talking about his governing style, not his army management.

Though that isn't always the case as shown by how Tywin's father, despite being kind and decent, was at the brink of ruining House Lannister and constantly had his vassals scoff at him. I think a more clear theme is short term view punishes you long term. Robb tried to be decent and only viewed his actions as in the moment instead of it's long term ramifications. Tywin failed to see how his children would fair without him. Both he and Robb payed for it. 

32 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

The Lannisters’ survival hinged on Littlefinger winning over the Tyrells. Tywin gave him the Vale which he later used to take out their only allies in the North.

The Lannisters placed just as much trust in him as Ned, and he had the chance to get them all killed but chose not to. If they were more aware of his nature than Ned was, then giving him so much power was even dumber on their part than it was on his.

I thought the Tyrells also came to the Lannisters out of a dislike for Stannis. So I'd chalk that up to luck as much as Littlefinger. 

Though as you said, Littlefinger had betrayed Ned and thus proven himself more trustworthy than he had to Ned during his stay in the city. Mostly by the fact that even if one does not expect Littlefinger to be trustworthy, you at least assume to trust that he is going to act in his self interest. Helping the Starks and the North after getting Ned killed was against his interest. At least in the interest of self preservation as it turned out. 

[TheCzarsHussar]

Oh thank god, thank fucking god.

Somehow despite letting the fucker load for a huge amount of time before and system repairs not working, when I said fuck it and gave it one last shot with trying to boot up again normally it loaded in.

I literally did nothing and the pc went from it's death throws to working again as if nothing happened.

[BigBossBalrog]

2 hours ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

And historically cruelty works better than love when it comes to handling an army. 

 

Julius Caesar would like a word with you. He was one of the most successful military leaders of all time, and you know why? Because his men loved him. He knew many of their names, fought beside them on the frontlines, subjected himself to the same living conditions they went through (watered down wine and awful food), made sure they were taken care of when they retired and went out of his way to be kind to them. And when he decided to cross the Rubicon they followed him out of love, another reason why he won against Pompeii, anyone of these men would die for Caeser. They would fight harder for him then any other Roman commander, clearly showing the best way to get your men to respect you it to respect them.

"Treat your men right, and there will be nothing that they won't do for you," 

[ColonelKillaBee]

I’d say cruelty is certainly the most popular method because anyone can be cruel, but I wouldn’t say it’s the most effective method.

[The Good Doctor]

28 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Neither. If Robert actually did take side in the war he'd lose either the North or the money that was keeping his rule afloat. I'm sure Robert would have argued for Tyrion's release and a peaceful settlement as much as possible because he cannot afford to loose either House. 

That money wasn’t keeping things afloat. It was being used for extravanagncies which  Ned discovered almost immediately upon arriving. 

Plus, show Tywin is bluffing hard since his gold mines have run dry. That won’t be as much of a problem if he can keep peace with Robert until the fat man croaks and Joffrey becomes king. But escalating a conflict now, when his funds are finite and Ned freaking Stark is calling shots, is a dumb thing to do.

28 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

This a feudal society were commoners are viewed as lesser by the nobles. While Tywin's actions would be seen as brazen and misguided at best, I'm sure many nobles would view it as an understandable reaction. The arrest was also annulled by Robert when he ordered Ned to release Tyrion.

Waging war on the neutral Riverlands is a little more severe than killing a few commoners. And Ned was prepared to honor Robert’s annulment and try to make peace with the Lannisters until Tywin ordered the attacks. 

28 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

It was still political incompetence on their parts to declare war on each other. Especially on Renly's part as if Stannis hadn't had magical aid, I'm sure Stannis would have found some way to claim what he viewed as his blood right. Even if it would have required more conventional means and standing down temporarily. Stannis isn't an idiot. 

They didn’t really declare war. They declared themselves kings and denied the other’s kingship. It was ambitious on Renly’s part, but he had so much force behind him that it was by no means a stupid move given that he wanted to be king. And Stannis was the king by law. Since neither of them was willing to back down, they had no choice but to fight each other in order to claim what they wanted/was theirs. 

Stannis would have loved nothing more than to join forces with his brother. But that would’ve meant Renly giving up the throne, which wasn’t gonna happen.

29 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Few people also liked Cersei to begin with. And that's more the problem with Tywin, he had no real successor. Jaime wouldn't and Tyrion was never given the chance. 

I would count this among his many faults, yes.

30 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

I thought the Tyrells also came to the Lannisters out of a dislike for Stannis. So I'd chalk that up to luck as much as Littlefinger. 

Show Loras was prepared to do something stupid until Littlefinger convinced him to get his family to join the Lannisters. This all happened very quickly and in the moment. If not for him, the Tyrells likely would have taken longer to act, which they have a history of doing. It was the suddenness of their alliance with Tywin that allowed them to win at the Blackwater. If it has taken a day longer, things would’ve gone differently. They have Littlefinger to thank for that. 

35 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Though that isn't always the case as shown by how Tywin's father, despite being kind and decent, was at the brink of ruining House Lannister and constantly had his vassals scoff at him. I think a more clear theme is short term view punishes you long term. Robb tried to be decent and only viewed his actions as in the moment instead of it's long term ramifications. Tywin failed to see how his children would fair without him. Both he and Robb payed for it. 

Tywin’s father was more than kind and decent. He was a numbskull who squandered his money and had zero mind for politics or governing. 

I disagree that that is a more clear theme. The parallels of Ned and Tywin are much stronger and the results are easier to compare.

44 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Though as you said, Littlefinger had betrayed Ned and thus proven himself more trustworthy than he had to Ned during his stay in the city. Mostly by the fact that even if one does not expect Littlefinger to be trustworthy, you at least assume to trust that he is going to act in his self interest. Helping the Starks and the North after getting Ned killed was against his interest. At least in the interest of self preservation as it turned out. 

So Littlefinger’s willingness to betray supposed friends makes him more trustworthy?

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I’d say cruelty is certainly the most popular method because anyone can be cruel, but I wouldn’t say it’s the most effective method.

Completely agreed. If your legacy and the future of the realm/nation matter to you, running a tight ship during your reign isn’t worth very much in the long run if you’re an evil asshole that everyone hates. Being just and actually caring about your people seems like a much better way of having a good lasting impact.

[BigBossBalrog]

Just now, The Good Doctor said:

Completely agreed. If your legacy and the future of the realm/nation matter to you, running a tight ship during your reign isn’t worth very much in the long run if you’re an evil asshole that everyone hates. Being just and actually caring about your people seems like a much better way of having a good lasting impact.

Like Ned and Julius most people mourned there death. People didn't mourn Tywin, they just mourned the fact he was replaced by someone even worse. 

Being cruel may get you initial loyalty, but when they chips are done (Ned being captured or Rome declaring you a traitor) if these two weren't so loved by there followers, everyone would have left them as early as possible. Kindness, fairness, and justness towards your men and the people you rule is the best way to inspire loyalty I think

[Witchking of Angmar]

37 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said:

Julius Caesar would like a word with you. He was one of the most successful military leaders of all time, and you know why? Because his men loved him. He knew many of their names, fought beside them on the frontlines, subjected himself to the same living conditions they went through (watered down wine and awful food), made sure they were taken care of when they retired and went out of his way to be kind to them. And when he decided to cross the Rubicon they followed him out of love, another reason why he won against Pompeii, anyone of these men would die for Caeser. They would fight harder for him then any other Roman commander, clearly showing the best way to get your men to respect you it to respect them.

"Treat your men right, and there will be nothing that they won't do for you," 

Though I highly doubt he maintained that loyalty by not being cruel when it was necessary. While one cannot rule through fear alone, one cannot rule without it either. Fear without love works, although not great, while love without fear tends to fall apart much quicker. An unfortunate fact of life. 

Julius had also pretty much put his army between a rock and a hard place by waging (by the senate) unlawful war in Gaul. War was of course to the soldiers' own benefit as they got to pillage, rape and enslave to their benefit so they could go home wealthier men. So when they got home from the campaign they were given the choice of either supporting Julius or face persecution by the senate. 

35 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

That money wasn’t keeping things afloat. It was being used for extravagances which  Ned discovered almost immediately upon arriving. 

Plus, show Tywin is bluffing hard since his gold mines have run dry. That won’t be as much of a problem if he can keep peace with Robert until the fat man croaks and Joffrey becomes king. But escalating a conflict now, when his funds are finite and Ned freaking Stark is calling shots, is a dumb thing to do.

Waging war on the neutral Riverlands is a little more severe than killing a few commoners. And Ned was prepared to honor Robert’s annulment and try to make peace with the Lannisters until Tywin ordered the attacks. 

Though just about no one outside of Casterly knew that they had no gold. Cersei didn't know so Robert didn't know. Tywin also didn't know if Ned was going to let Tyrion go or anything like that. For all he knew they were probably trying to execute Tyrion (which they were) so it stands to reason that a desperate situation calls for a desperate action. 

And the Riverlands weren't exactly neutral as it was Catelyn that seized Tyrion. Catelyn is a Tully and Tywin obviously thought that by attacking the Riverlands he would get the Tully's to bend and get Catelyn to give back Tyrion. Not a very good move to openly attack I agree as just holding the land hostage would probably have worked better. 

51 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Tywin’s father was more than kind and decent. He was a numbskull who squandered his money and had zero mind for politics or governing. 

I disagree that that is a more clear theme. The parallels of Ned and Tywin are much stronger and the results are easier to compare.

Tywin's father was a good man. Robb was good man. The first one almost ruined his family and the latter died for it. It's clear that the good people don't succeed just for being good and that cruelty gets punished just for being cruel. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

A parent has to be strict once in a while but that doesn’t make them an abusive parent. The same is true for a leader.

Being strict, even cruel when needed doesn’t make them cruel leaders, and doesn’t show cruelty is more effective than kindness.

And anyway you can put in kind in place of cruelty in your post and the truth is unchanged.

And I do not believe love without fear makes an army fall apart. You can be strict without leading with fear. Love doesn’t mean babying your troops either.

[BigBossBalrog]

I'm mean it's simple would you follow a dude who whips you, berates you, and threatens to hurt your and your brothers, or a person who asks you for your name, spends time with you and the other boys, and cares a great deal about your survival? 

King Foltest from the Witcher is another good example. I knew why his men followed him.

[ColonelKillaBee]

If It were a she that might be kinda hot lol

Like Maven Black-Briar  

[The Good Doctor]

1 hour ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Though just about no one outside of Casterly knew that they had no gold. Cersei didn't know so Robert didn't know.

Tywin knew. Which means Tywin was willing to risk jumping into an almost unwinnable war with very low funds to wage it. 

1 hour ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

For all he knew they were probably trying to execute Tyrion (which they were) so it stands to reason that a desperate situation calls for a desperate action. 

No they weren’t. The Starks wanted to hold Tyrion hostage because they’re not stupid. Lysa turned out to be nuts but even she gave him a trial. Tywin’s desperate action accomplished nothing and was all for posture to show that Lannisters cannot be threatened without consequences. But it ended up being a leading cause of a war that could’ve been a lot worse for him, if not a straight up slaughter had Robert decided to take a side.

1 hour ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Tywin's father was a good man. Robb was good man. The first one almost ruined his family and the latter died for it. It's clear that the good people don't succeed just for being good and that cruelty gets punished just for being cruel. 

Tytos Lannister was a buffoon. He ruled like Robert with a bigger heart. We barely even saw Robb rule, just lead a campaign.

And I never said that all good people succeed. They obviously don’t. But Robb didn’t die because of his goodness. He died for a lot of reasons, but most of all because he broke his oaths for marriage with an important ally.

Name one character who hasn’t paid dearly for being cruel. Books or show. This isn’t real life. It is a story with themes and one of GRRM‘s clearest ones is that cruelty and ruthlessness aren’t good traits in a ruler just because they can make his life easier. Even most of the good characters who die get vindicated post-death. The Northmen love the Starks because of Ned. Some of them even refuse to accept any king but a King in the North because of Robb. Nobody loved Tywin or would fight to keep his house alive now that he’s gone.