Roleplayer’s Off Topic Thread #10

[ColonelKillaBee]

57 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

I've never really seen any suggestion that Snoke even was a particularly effective leader. He seemed more like the Star Wars equivalent to a living god. Basically, he has his leadership and governors and whatnot actually managing things, while he focuses more on the "spiritual", expanding the influence of the Dark Side by hunting Luke, corrupting Rey and Kylo, etc. He had a much more metaphysical goal than simply ruling the galaxy.

I mean militarily, which he definitely has a hand in with the way Hux reacted upon his death, like they couldn't even chase after a dying group of rebels without him behind them. 

That could be again because they lost their spiritual leader but I think it's a bit more than that.

[Witchking of Angmar]

10 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

To be honest, I never got the impression that he was all cool and collected even in the first movie. He still seemed petty and vindictive based on his relationship with Kylo. It's just that back then, he was in a much more secure position, whereas he opens up in The Last Jedi as a total failure and embarrassment after losing the Starkiller base. So we're seeing him now in a much more shaken up state.

That's a big if. I wouldn't be surprised if the returning director will try his best to invalidate the Last Jedi as much as possible. 

[The Good Doctor]

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

I mean militarily, which he definitely has a hand in with the way Hux reacted upon his death, like they couldn't even chase after a dying group of rebels without him behind them. 

That could be again because they lost their spiritual leader but I think it's a bit more than that.

We've never really seen Snoke get involved militarily before, so I think it was more that he was just shaken up by the fact that the guy who they believed to be the most powerful being in the galaxy, and who they were doing all this for in the first place, was dead. Imagine if Darth Sideous had been killed by Yoda in episode 3. The Empire would've collapsed, because it was centered around the one guy. At that point, Hux probably had no clue what to do because he hadn't even imagined this scenario coming to pass. He probably was wondering if it was over then and there. If not for Kylo taking the reigns, it might've been. Snoke didn't have an heir.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

That's a big if. I wouldn't be surprised if the returning director will try his best to invalidate the Last Jedi as much as possible. 

That would be on the director of the next movie, not The Last Jedi.

[Witchking of Angmar]

2 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

That would be on the director of the next movie, not The Last Jedi.

But it does show that's it hard to consider anything canon as it's clear that there isn't much that can be called continuity. 

I also don't really consider Last Jedi much in the way of canon. It got poor writing and plot holes big enough for Stardestroyers to pass through. 

[TheCzarsHussar]

I have one thing to say in this argument.

 

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 hour ago, TheCzarsHussar said:

I have one thing to say in this argument.

Casual debates aren't arguments  

[The Good Doctor]

Just now, Witchking of Angmar said:

But it does show that's it hard to consider anything canon as it's clear that there isn't much that can be called continuity. 

It doesn't show anything, because the third movie isn't out yet and we know literally nothing about it. Hux being a dynamic enough character to act differently in two different movies where his circumstances are wildly different is not an example of him being portrayed inconsistently or continuity being broken.

I won't say that there aren't plot holes. Star Wars has always had its share of those. But Hux is a very poor example, imo.

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 hour ago, The Good Doctor said:

That would be on the director of the next movie, not The Last Jedi.

Depending on what they drop, I'd be ok with it if the force awakens director does do this. Like the thing with Fin and Rose. Meeeeeehh. Reminds me of harry potter when Harry went with that random asian chick and she was basic as fuck so Ron could be with Hermione. 

Though it'd be ok if Rey and Kylo bang  Not that that's gonna happen. 

Aaaanyway, for serial, regardless of what I think about the last movie, as far as plots and such, I don't think that director had a good grasp on what makes a good star wars movie. It didn't flow well at all and the stuff with Rose and Fin was more of a distraction to Kylo and Rey than anything else.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Rose and Fin

I would've liked the movie so much more if Rose hadn't even been in it and everything involving Fin between him waking up and their escape to the salt planet had been replaced with more Kylo/Rey/Luke stuff. I like the guy, but his role in this movie felt like total filler.

[The Good Doctor]

Of course, then we wouldn't have gotten Benicio Del Toro's character, but even that ended up not really having any impact on the movie. I wish they'd kept his character but given him a different role in a different plot.

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 hour ago, The Good Doctor said:

We've never really seen Snoke get involved militarily before, so I think it was more that he was just shaken up by the fact that the guy who they believed to be the most powerful being in the galaxy, and who they were doing all this for in the first place, was dead. Imagine if Darth Sideous had been killed by Yoda in episode 3. The Empire would've collapsed, because it was centered around the one guy. At that point, Hux probably had no clue what to do because he hadn't even imagined this scenario coming to pass. He probably was wondering if it was over then and there. If not for Kylo taking the reigns, it might've been. Snoke didn't have an heir.

I think Darth Sideous involved himself a lot more in military affairs than we see Snoke doing though, which isn't saying a great deal because we've seen more of Sideous but because of that it would make sense for that collapse to happen all the same. Granted, Palpatine also left a lot of it to Vader, and we also see that Vader was in a similar relationship to the military that Kylo is now in that he doesn't necessarily command them like a general (since they both had military giving them lip before getting bitch slapped or force choked).

The point I'm making though is that even though we don't see Snoke doing so, I feel like the reaction we saw of Snoke dying would indeed match if Palpatine was killed, enough that I feel like he has to be a part of the military in some way. Didn't snoke throw Hux's ass around for letting Poe put hands on that dreadnought?

[BTC]

I think Johnson has a much better grasp of what makes an interesting movie though. I’ve liked his movies more than Abrams’. He took risks, and it results in inconsistent flow, but at least TLJ isn’t like TFA being A New Hope redux. There’s a lot more risks taken than in TFA I feel like. Some parts don’t feel as Star Warsy, sure, but I appreciate what it was trying to do, even if it doesn’t all work. 

[The Good Doctor]

8 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

The point I'm making though is that even though we don't see Snoke doing so, I feel like the reaction we saw of Snoke dying would indeed match if Palpatine was killed, enough that I feel like he has to be a part of the military in some way. Didn't snoke throw Hux's ass around for letting Poe put hands on that dreadnought?

I don't really think Palpatine was very involved with the military either. You could give him credit for orchestrating Order 66, but overall he was much more of a political manipulator than a General. Tarkin was always the go-to guy for all that.

We don't really know how involved Snoke got, but it seems to me like he basically let his people do their thing, and only really stuck his nose in to tell them good job or punish them for fucking up and making him look bad. The most specific orders he ever gave to Hux essentially boiled down to "do better" or "fix it" with it being on Hux to figure out how.

[Witchking of Angmar]

21 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

It doesn't show anything, because the third movie isn't out yet and we know literally nothing about it. Hux being a dynamic enough character to act differently in two different movies where his circumstances are wildly different is not an example of him being portrayed inconsistently or continuity being broken.

I won't say that there aren't plot holes. Star Wars has always had its share of those. But Hux is a very poor example, imo.

Though it isn't much different circumstances. In both movies he is shown when the First Order has the upper hand and is winning. Not to mention the scene with him and Poe is so blatantly bad that even if Hux was an incompetent hothead he would definitely have ordered everyone to open fire on Poe the moment he realises who he is speaking with. Not to mention that it then goes back and forth with him being competent with the tracker, which then for some reason Snoke doesn't know about, yet also has it installed on his own flagship. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Witchking of Angmar

[Centurion]

Rose and Finn: The Plot line that never should’ve happened

[ColonelKillaBee]

59 minutes ago, BTCollins said:

I think Johnson has a much better grasp of what makes an interesting movie though. I’ve liked his movies more than Abrams’. He took risks, and it results in inconsistent flow, but at least TLJ isn’t like TFA being A New Hope redux. There’s a lot more risks taken than in TFA I feel like. Some parts don’t feel as Star Warsy, sure, but I appreciate what it was trying to do, even if it doesn’t all work. 

If it ain't broke, lol. 

I suppose I did indeed argue for the balancing the force stuff, I like that aspect of it, but even though the force awakens was a redux, it was much more fun of a watch in my opinion. 

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, Centurion said:

Rose and Finn: The Plot line that never should’ve happened

I think everyone, detractors and fans of the movie alike, can agree on that.  

[ColonelKillaBee]

If the last jedi is the stepping stone for a more interesting star wars though and they stop setting up concepts in the third movie, it'll be worth it. 

Like I said, the prequel's second movie was pretty much on par with this one and wasn't all that either.

[Witchking of Angmar]

12 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

I would've liked the movie so much more if Rose hadn't even been in it and everything involving Fin between him waking up and their escape to the salt planet had been replaced with more Kylo/Rey/Luke stuff. I like the guy, but his role in this movie felt like total filler.

I feel like his role is such a waste overall at all. There's so much potential in showing things from the view of an actual Stormtrooper. But instead he goes from janitor mopping floors to a soldier tasked with guarding and following Kylo Ren. Which is a backstory that doesn't make sense. Then goes on to join the rebellion and kills several of his former comrades, people he grew up with, without any qualms. I'd almost swear he was a psychopath because of that. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

57 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

I feel like his role is such a waste overall at all. There's so much potential in showing things from the view of an actual Stormtrooper. But instead he goes from janitor mopping floors to a soldier tasked with guarding and following Kylo Ren. Which is a backstory that doesn't make sense. Then goes on to join the rebellion and kills several of his former comrades, people he grew up with, without any qualms. I'd almost swear he was a psychopath because of that. 

If I grew up with Nazis, I could kill them pretty easily regardless of if I knew them. 

Especially if there wasn't much bonding with you and the other troops in the first place, since he didn't really fight or kill anyone before then. He was just a worker bee, not a soldier. People like that don't always form those bonds, and if he couldn't kill like the others I'm sure he felt even more apart from the rest of the troops. Or else he wouldn't have run in the first place. 

 

[The Good Doctor]

10 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Though it isn't much different circumstances. In both movies he is shown when the First Order has the upper hand and is winning. Not to mention the scene with him and Poe is so blatantly bad that even if Hux was an incompetent hothead he would definitely have ordered everyone to open fire on Poe the moment he realises who he is speaking with. Not to mention that it then goes back and forth with him being competent with the tracker, which then for some reason Snoke doesn't know about, yet also has it installed on his ship flagship. 

Sure it is. Just because they are winning doesn't mean they didn't recently lose their greatest weapon and home base, or that it wasn't largely his responsibility to keep that from happening. Hux himself is on very thin ice at this point and he knows it. For what it's worth, I don't like the scene between him and Poe at the beginning either. It felt like a really weird and campy way to open up what was easily one of the darkest Star Wars movies.

The tracker is not really an example of Hux's competence. It just shows that he has lots of resources and smart enough underlings to construct it (the tracker was actually in development under the original Empire. There's an allusion to it in Rogue One). Snoke not knowing about it makes sense if you consider what I've been saying about him not really being all that involved with the military side of things. He's been spending his time using the Force to look for Luke and fuck with Kylo and Rey. And probably a bunch of other shit too.

[Witchking of Angmar]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

If I grew up with Nazis, I could kill them pretty easily regardless of if I knew them. 

Especially if there wasn't much bonding with you and the other troops in the first place, since he didn't really fight or kill anyone before then. He was just a worker bee, not a soldier. People like that don't always form those bonds, and if he couldn't kill like the others I'm sure he felt even more apart from the rest of the troops. Or else he wouldn't have run in the first place. 

Though he grew up with them and was explicitly mentioned to have been indoctrinated since a very young age. It's essentially what Caesar's Legion does. And they actually succeed in keeping them in line. And they don't let unproved soldiers guard someone like Lanius. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

57 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Though he grew up with them and was explicitly mentioned to have been indoctrinated since a very young age. It's essentially what Caesar's Legion does. And they actually succeed in keeping them in line. And they don't let unproved soldiers guard someone like Lanius. 

And yet, even someone who bought Caesar's doctrine to an extent was able to come to the conclusion that it would fail, and even looked to another nation entirely for hope. One of his frumentarii even. 

You can't program the human brain like a robot, there will always be detractors.

[The Good Doctor]

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

He was just a worker bee, not a soldier

This is the part that's weird to me. How did he end up going on shock missions with Kylo freaking Ren if his only experience was mopping floors and operating the trash compactor?

Though to be fair, judging by the concept art they had some significant late-stage rewrites when it came to Fin's character. From what I've seen, they had some really cool shit planned for him back in the day. After crash landing on Jakku he would've encountered a warrior tribe in the desert and become their leader using his skills and training as a Stormtrooper. That bloody handprint on his helmet was a reference to this as it was originally going to be his face paint.