BigBossBalrog Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 And I guess....initially it seems like a pretty sweet deal. It puts it's "champion", so to speak in a Gilded Cage of sorts. You get sweet moon powers. The thing can bring your dead loved ones to life (imperfectly). You get a sick little cottage. I guess you can eat whatever you want. Then again, as Gherman shows, it eventually turns into a living fucking hell, and it's completely indifferent to what it's "champion" actually wants. But (like you and Doctor) I don't think it's evil so to speak. We can't really judge beings on this comic scale to be evil. But you can feel real rage and hatred emanating off it once it's moon powers don't work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 25 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: Remember, this is a bring whose intentions we’re not supposed to fully understand. Yeah, that’s kind of my point. I’m not the one attributing care to it. Or malice, either. If I had to guess any feeling I think it has towards humans, I’d go with indifference, because its actions mostly point to it just using us as a means to an end. The only thing we know for sure is that it sent us on a hunt to fork in lots of blood echos and ultimately put down Nightmare Mergo. This strikes me as very predatory. Not of humans, but of other Great Ones (in this case, Ebrietas’s blood in the echos and possibly Mergo in some weird extradimensional way). Remember, the initial instructions from the Dream were literally just “go out and kill stuff for me”. In fact, it could have been holding us close so it could finally drain us now that we were “full”. Would explain the way it lured us in (like that snake in Jungle Book, lol) and brought us up to its weird mouth thing. And why this happens immediately after we put down Mergo. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBossBalrog Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 One thing I believe is that it's alot less powerful then the other "true" Old Ones, since it seems to heavily rely on dirty tactics.. Not only is it's boss somewhat easy, the fucker is relying on humans to do it's dirty work. And after the hunts done, it just sneaks around and tries to take the player by surprise. Seems quite cowardly The impression from it's movement and model also seem very slithery, sly, like a snake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: Would have to be some feeling of safety to cause that and yea maybe that’s just to trap us, but think about it, people do this sort of thing to animals all the time to catch them. It’s not always negative intentions. It was to trap us, though. Us getting trapped is what happens next, whether the MP sees it as a bad thing for us or not. I’m not saying it had overtly malicious intentions for us. I don’t think it cared about us at all. I think it was like “this little thing will be a great way to feed my cosmic belly, time to grab it”. And then we turned out to be a way bigger deal than the MP bargained for, which pissed it off something fierce. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said: One thing I believe is that it's alot less powerful then the other "true" Old Ones, since it seems to heavily rely on dirty tactics.. Not only is it's boss somewhat easy, the fucker is relying on humans to do it's dirty work. And after the hunts done, it just sneaks around and tries to take the player by surprise. Seems quite cowardly The impression from it's movement and model also seem very slithery, sly, like a snake. A grizzly bear is stronger than a human, but a few of us could wipe their whole species out this week if we wanted to. If the MP’s strength comes from guile, and it works, then it may as well be considered more powerful than the beings it preys on. Provided they’re not capable of fighting back in this manner. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 13 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said: Yeah, that’s kind of my point. I’m not the one attributing care to it. Or malice, either. Uh ok dude, my point though was simply that it’s not straight up evil, and care doesn’t mean that it’s benevolent, it could simply be care the way a slave master cares for its slaves. Or a master and it’s pet. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 But regardless of how Gehrman perceives things, since being stuck in a reality with an imperfect loved one where you’re immortal and alone would be hell for anyone, it goes through the trouble of providing you a place at all that is somewhat pleasant. Even if you are just it’s servant, clearly it cares about its things, enough to be emotional, angry even when it loses one and cannot immediately replace it. It spells bad news for us, yes, because we are not typically ok with being owned by something else like dogs, certainly not confined to a reality that while mildly pleasant we cannot escape. If it were really that bad it would’ve made a place like the mensis nightmare. But it can show “care” while still being bad news for us. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 It basically gave you a doghouse lol. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said: “this little thing will be a great way to feed my cosmic belly, time to grab it” This is what I don’t agree with. I just didn’t get this impression but to each their own "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Other notes, It’s possible the things name is “Flora” because the Doll’s dialogue and saying Flora of the moon. There’s depictions of the moon presence in Yahar’gul that look like flowers. The embrace did seem somewhat motherly to me, and its descent feminine. The tentacles on its head also look like long hair. The moon does have conotations of fertility, so it’s beckoning and the coming of the great ones bringing with it pregnancy by immaculate conception is fitting. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBossBalrog Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 If Gherman is dead set on killing you so you avoid his fate, I really think it dosen't matter if it wants to "care for you". The thing is bad news. And I find arguing about a cosmic entity's morality and the HUMAN concept of caring to be completely against the point of cosmic horror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 24 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: Uh ok dude, my point though was simply that it’s not straight up evil, and care doesn’t mean that it’s benevolent, it could simply be care the way a slave master cares for its slaves. Or a master and it’s pet. I never said it was straight up evil. And I’ve said several times I don’t think it has malicious feelings towards us. So of course I don’t think it “would’ve made a place like the Mensis Nightmare”. The intention wasn’t to create a Nightmare or punish Gehrman. It was to create a prison. 20 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: it goes through the trouble of providing you a place at all that is somewhat pleasant. All it did was provide a place that was an exact copy of where it was summoned to. Every Dream and Nightmare we encounter is based off of a real place in the memories of the people who get trapped in it. In this case, it’s literally the only location we know the Moon Presence has even interacted with. None of this indicates that it acted out of care for the Hunters. The only thing I can think of that might would be the doll, but given that this was most likely the original pact that attracted it in the first place, and given that we don’t know the rules of this sort of bargaining with Great Ones, that’s not really a given either. 20 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said: Even if you are just it’s servant, clearly it cares about its things, enough to be emotional, angry even when it loses one and cannot immediately replace it. You’re the source of its “food”, for lack of a better word. It doesn’t have to care about you personally to be displeased that it won’t get all those echos. We might be replaceable, but they are not. It’s like spending hours cooking the perfect meal, anticipating it, getting excited, and then having someone steal it at dinner time. You get pissed. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Sigh, @BigBossBalrog you’re completely missing my point. I said already that it’s bad news... I for one still find it interesting to ponder its motivations and to me that embrace is a clue, depending how you interpret it. Obviously we interpret it very differently. I’m not defending the fucking thing "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Anyway, I’m done, agree to disagree. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said: If Gherman is dead set on killing you so you avoid his fate, I really think it dosen't matter if it wants to "care for you". The thing is bad news. And I find arguing about a cosmic entity's morality and the HUMAN concept of caring to be completely against the point of cosmic horror Colonel acknowledged the first part. But I completely agree with the second. The only trait I can confidently attribute to the Moon Presence is that it is predatory. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 This game already goes against typical cosmic horror by attributing “sympathy” in any shape or form, even if it’s vague and not how we typically apply the word. The way the game uses “sympathetic” is how I’m trying to use “care”. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 I.E. not in a benevolent or loving way. We are an asset to be used. That it uses humans at all opens up a possibility for this idea. And I for one find the idea of a higher being using us like Hound dogs on a hunt to be pretty terrifying and fitting for the story. 1 "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 And as for the prison comment, what is a dog house if not a glorified prison for an animal. We even have a fenced off perimeter. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Just now, ColonelKillaBee said: This game already goes against typical cosmic horror by attributing “sympathy” in any shape or form, even if it’s vague and not how we typically apply the word. To be fair, the term sympathy was attributed by speculative humans in-universe. Though I’m not against the idea of the game going against typical cosmic horror since I really do think it’s its own animal, not Lovecraftverse with new names. 1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said: I.E. not in a benevolent or loving way. We are an asset to be used. That it uses humans at all opens up a possibility for this idea. And I for one find the idea of a higher being using us like Hound dogs on a hunt to be pretty terrifying and fitting for the story. I agree with all of this. It’s basically what I’ve been saying. It “cares” about us in the sense that we are useful. But probably not on any level much deeper than that. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 In fact the more I think about this idea the more I like it. The moon presence basically keeps us from going feral, has its servant “train” us for the hunt while we unwittingly go about doing its bidding. We even have “trick weapons” lol. That ones a stretch but still. ”When the moon hangs low, the line between man and beast is blurred.” Thats in more ways than one imo. 4 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said: To be fair, the term sympathy was attributed by speculative humans in-universe. Though I’m not against the idea of the game going against typical cosmic horror since I really do think it’s its own animal, not Lovecraftverse with new names. I agree with all of this. It’s basically what I’ve been saying. It “cares” about us in the sense that we are useful. But probably not on any level much deeper than that. I know lol, that’s why I was getting frustrated I even used slave master as an example, y’all should know I don’t think much of that sort of “care”. But even so, to the Slave Master or pet owner, they might see things much differently than we do. To me the actions of this thing reminds me a lot of that sort of relationship. Even if to us it’s “care” is unwanted, that doesn’t mean that in its own cosmic deity twisted sort of way it doesnt care for its pets. And for me that’s what I saw in that embrace. Not love necessarily, but possession and ownership, a master and it’s dog. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 And what do humans do to a dog that bites it’s master or disobeys it’s command? What do we do to unruly dogs that can’t be controlled? Get rid of it, kill it, replace it. edit: generally/historically speaking "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Doctor Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 4 hours ago, ColonelKillaBee said: know lol, that’s why I was getting frustrated I even used slave master as an example, y’all should know I don’t think much of that sort of “care”. To be fair, you also used a pet owner and described the embrace as motherly. Which have much more loving connotations. And I still don’t think we’ll ever agree about the embrace. To me it looks a lot more like he pulls you in like that snake in Jungle Book, picks you up, and then suddenly goes in for the extradimensional equivalent of a bite. If it just picked us up, I would be more open to the “caring/possession” interpretation of that sequence. But I don’t think it had us do all that work just to give its prize pony a face snuggle at the end. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 1 hour ago, The Good Doctor said: To be fair, you also used a pet owner and described the embrace as motherly. Which have much more loving connotations. Well as you said, it’s a “lure” possibly. I also said we do the same thing when trying to catch animals, false sense of security. That said, for all we know it very well could be a motherly or loving thing, to it in its point of view. “Love” from a monster can also be terrifying from something that refuses to let you go. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 1 hour ago, The Good Doctor said: But I don’t think it had us do all that work just to give its prize pony a face snuggle at the end. Obviously not, considering the ending but you can seal a deal with a kiss as easily as you can with a bite or what have you. Thats why everyone refers to it as an “embrace” rather than a grip, grapple, entanglement, etc. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKillaBee Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Side note: The Japanese translation of the dolls dialogue says Flora of the Moon in Dream, so it’s safe to say it’s name/title is Flora and it’s female. Which sounds about right, I thought its mouth looked like the opening of a vagina and Florais a Roman fertility god. Which makes sense since the moon is symbolic of fertility as well. Red moon as well, symbolic of a woman’s period cycle. Flora is as such, believed by Romans to be a Goddess of love because of her elements of sex and life, things blossoming. So it’s possible that’s what they were going for, albeit obviously in a very dark and twisted manner. Rapey even. Lol you get Bill Cosby’d so bad you can’t walk afterwards. And look back at those stone depictions of her in Yahar’gul, they look like flowers. Theres also some stonework in the nightmare frontier that could possibly be representing her. "Even the hardest dick must go flaccid." -Colonelkillabee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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